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 Thu Mar 27, 2008 10:47 am How do you define a native speaker? |
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| Quote: | What does your feeling tell you when comparing marvellous to great?
To me it's a bit like comparing Picasso's Guernica to a really good sketch drawn by my talented cousin Aoibhíeann. |
So if you want to be seen as an art expert, you use marvelous, right?
| Quote: | | International English is what the majority of English users speak, read and write; and not only on this forum. |
How would you describe International English? |
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Molly
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| Thu Mar 27, 2008 11:41 am How do you define a native speaker? |
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| Quote: | | I should be able to contribute to development of this language |
I agree, but I'm not sure that many native-speakers here would. Seems like a "hands off our language" attitude prevails here. |
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Molly
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| Thu Mar 27, 2008 12:35 pm How do you define a native speaker? |
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| Molly wrote: | | Quote: | | I should be able to contribute to development of this language |
I agree, but I'm not sure that many native-speakers here would. Seems like a "hands off our language" attitude prevails here. |
It's probably best to leave you to what you want to believe. Some people only discuss to make a point
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Ralf
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| Thu Mar 27, 2008 12:51 pm How do you define a native speaker? |
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A native-speaker is often described as "someone who has complete command of the language". What problems do you see with such a description?
It all depends on the context you are using the description in. Let's say, you are a free lance English teacher advertising your services in the local newspaper. Your ad reads "Learn English with a native speaker". Potential clients call and ask what country you are from. You tell them that you were born and raised in Finland or Nigeria. What kind of reaction do you think you would get from those potential clients? Even or rather because your English is impeccable there is no need to try and claim you are a 'native speaker of English'. Why harp on these definitions? We have discussed this before and it seems that you are suffering from a complex of inferiority because you were born and raised in a country that is either a 'non-English speaking country' or a country that by the vast majority of potential ESL clients is not recognized as such.
Of course you can try and convince your potential clients that you are a native speaker of English although you were born in Finland or Nigeria. But then again I doubt that you would be able to convince any of them.
On the other hand, you might find a few selected scholars who spend most of their time trying to come up with new definitions of linguistic terms. They might agree that you are a native speaker of English and everybody will be happy at long last. |
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Molly
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| Thu Mar 27, 2008 12:52 pm How do you define a native speaker? |
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| Molly wrote: | | I agree, but I'm not sure that many native-speakers here would. Seems like a "hands off our language" attitude prevails here. |
| Ralf wrote: | | It's probably best to leave you to what you want to believe. Some people only discuss to make a point |
Does that mean you disagree with me? |
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Molly
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| Sat Mar 29, 2008 16:55 pm How do you define a native speaker? |
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It all depends on the context you are using the term in. Let's say you are a free lance English teacher who is advertising her services in the local newspaper. Your ad reads: "Learn English with a native speaker". Potential clients call and ask what country you are from. You tell them that you were born and raised in Finland or Nigeria. What kind of reaction do you expect from your prospects? It's clear that they will either be confused or amused. Or they will be angry because they think you are having them on. At any rate, you will have a hard time convincing those people that you are a native speaker of English and it's rather unlikely that you will generate any business with this strategy.
On the other hand you might find a few scholars who spend most of their time trying to come up with new definitions of linguistic terms. They might classify you as a native speaker of English and everyone will be happy.
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Torsten
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| Sat Mar 29, 2008 17:18 pm How do you define a native speaker? |
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| Molly wrote: | A native-speaker is often described as "someone who has complete command of the language". What problems do you see with such a description?
....
Your ad reads "Learn English with a native speaker". Potential clients call and ask what country you are from. You tell them that you were born and raised in Finland or Nigeria. What kind of reaction do you think you would get from those potential clients? . |
But to have a complete command of a language one has to be a native speaker of that language. Most people whose mother tongue is not English only claim that they have a full knowledge of English, but in fact they have only a limited knowledge of English. Maybe a negligent percentage of people, who have been working real hard on their English (like 4-7 hours a day every day), have neared a native level, but that's unlikely.
Then why should I pay a fair amount of money to a phoney who claims he's a native speaker, and who inevitably WILL make grammar errors and who does not have the foggiest idea of how to say things in a natural way? There is a member on this forum who said he had been an English teacher for 25 years !!! and who stated that to say "to make an error" is wrong . What do you think?
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Lost_Soul
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| Sat Mar 29, 2008 17:40 pm How do you define a native speaker? |
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| Torsten wrote: | It all depends on the context you are using the term in. Let's say you are a free lance English teacher who is advertising her services in the local newspaper. Your ad reads: "Learn English with a native speaker". Potential clients call and ask what country you are from. You tell them that you were born and raised in Finland or Nigeria. What kind of reaction do you expect from your prospects? It's clear that they will either be confused or amused. Or they will be angry because they think you are having them on. At any rate, you will have a hard time convincing those people that you are a native speaker of English and it's rather unlikely that you will generate any business with this strategy.
On the other hand you might find a few scholars who spend most of their time trying to come up with new definitions of linguistic terms. They might classify you as a native speaker of English and everyone will be happy. |
Or lets' say you advertise yourself as a native-speaking teacher because you were born and brought up in an English speaking family, and went to school, in Britain. I call you up, hire you, and after a few months find that you know next to nothing about teaching your language.
That story happens all over the ESL world. So many native-speakers hired just because they can label themselves as such.
Let qualified natives and non-natives advertise themselves as "expert-speaker teacher". Let it happen for a number of years and then we'll maybe see the disappearance of the term "native-speaker" from the ESL world. It's an inadequate term for such a professional arena and it does allow discrimination of some of those who are highly qualified to teach ESL/EFL English and of those who reach a much higher level than many native-speakers do regarding expert-use.
Nuff said! |
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Molly
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| Sat Mar 29, 2008 17:43 pm How do you define a native speaker? |
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Even if you had 'complete command of the language' you still would not have the same grasp of the culture and mentality of a native speaker. The vast majority of ESL learners don't learn English for the sake of the language. They want to advance in their careers, improve their standard of living, reach a higher level of independence. That's why they turn to native speakers who were born and raised in an English speaking country. What country do most ESL students want to study in? Nigeria, India, Finland? Why would I learn "Nigerian English" or "Indian English" if my goal is to study in the US? If I wanted to study and live in India, I'd decide to learn Hindu rather than 'Indian English'.
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Torsten
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| Sat Mar 29, 2008 17:47 pm How do you define a native speaker? |
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| Quote: | | Why would I learn "Nigerian English" or "Indian English" if my goal is to study in the US? |
And why would you study American English if you wanted to come and study in Nigeria, for example? You're just caught with the idea that American English is somehow superior to, say, Nigerian English, for example. As shown above, many Americans do not know how to use the present perfect correctly, but most Nigerian English speakers do.
If you want expertise in using the language correctly, you won't always find it were you think.
What country do most ESL students want to study in?
What shall we for with the ones who want to study in countries apart from the USA?
| Quote: | | If I wanted to study and live in India, I'd decide to learn Hindu rather than 'Indian English'. |
Really? Even if you wanted to live in Tamil Nadu, Kerala, or Mysore, for example? Believe me, you'd be safer almost everywhere in India if you were to learn English. |
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Molly
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| Sat Mar 29, 2008 17:59 pm How do you define a native speaker? |
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As for me, I deny the existence of the languages like "Indian English" or "Nigerian English". If people tolerate phrases such as "I was go home", then it displays their education, or the lack thereof and disrespect for English.
There're, of course, American, New-Zealand, British variations of the English language, but the native speakers of those languages would never for the life of them say "I look forward to see you" or "I was go home", and apparently the native speakers of so called "Indian English" do just that.
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Lost_Soul
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| Sat Mar 29, 2008 18:08 pm How do you define a native speaker? |
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| Quote: | | Then why should I pay a fair amount of money to a phoney who claims he's a native speaker, and who inevitably WILL make grammar errors and who does not have the foggiest idea of how to say things in a natural way? |
You'll find a lot of native-speaking English teachers doing just the same. Being a native-speaker is just not enough if one wants a career in teaching the language. And, again, there is a world wide lack of native-speaking English teachers. So, would you suggest that we all of us who are not as priveleged as you wait for that to change? Millions of people all over the world are, through lack of access to native-speakers or to lack of funds, etc, are being taught and taught very well by nonnative teachers.
That's reality.
Also, it is a fact that most nonnative speaking students get by very well on only an intermediate level of English. Thousands of business deals are completed world over at such a level of English. This is one of the reasons for the emergence of International English. Not all students have the time, money and need to reach the levels you would want from them before you said "He/she uses English well. That's because he/she had a native-speaking teacher". |
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Molly
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| Sat Mar 29, 2008 18:18 pm How do you define a native speaker? |
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| Quote: | | As for me, I deny the existence of the languages like "Indian English" or "Nigerian English". |
Really? Are you a linguist? Do you have an in-depth knowledge of both Indian English and Nigerian English? Denying the existence of something from a point of ignorance about that thing is pretty poor, don't you think?
And why do you think the term "American English" was invented? Why do you think an educated British English speaker would would never for the life of them say "Did you eat yet"? Does an American who misuses the present perfect in such a way display his/her education, or the lack thereof and disrespect for English?
Go see these, and deny at will...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dialects_of_the_English_language
Do the speakers of such dialects show disrespect toward English?
And finally, lost soul:
| Quote: | With globalization has come an acceptance of an Indian identity and it is reflected in the confidence with which Indians have made English a part of their culture and bent the rules of conventional usage.
http://www.chillibreeze.com/StreetEnglishIndia.asp |
Go deny them the intelligence to do that, will you? |
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Molly
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| Sat Mar 29, 2008 19:51 pm How do you define a native speaker? |
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| Molly wrote: | | Do American who misuses the present perfect in such a way display his/her education, or the lack thereof and disrespect for English? |
Golly, Molly, that was an interesting construction. Just out of curiosity, what would you call your own brand of English?
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