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 #47 (permalink) Thu Mar 13, 2008 13:45 pm How do you define a native speaker? |
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| What you're engaging in is a sort of semantic play that "intellectuals" in the linguistics and ESL fields engage in. |
Well, why bother engaging with such people, Jamie? There's lots of other threads around. Apart from criticising me, what more do you have to add? I'm sure the other members here are more interested in the latter than the former. Aren't you? |
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Molly
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| #48 (permalink) Thu Mar 13, 2008 14:33 pm How do you define a native speaker? |
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Hi Molly,
I think that Jamie has made a lot of very valid and interesting points so he has made substantial contributions to this thread. As this discussion shows, different people have different opinions when it comes to defining the term 'native speaker' and there is nothing wrong with that. Maybe you could give us a concrete example that shows how ESL teachers are discriminated against because of their language background.
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Torsten
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| #49 (permalink) Thu Mar 13, 2008 14:47 pm How do you define a native speaker? |
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| Torsten wrote: |
| Maybe you could give us a concrete example that shows how ESL teachers are discriminated against because of their language background. |
I can give you two:
At a college where I taught, one ESL instructor was a native speaker of standard English but had a slight Jamaican accent. Students from all over the world detected this accent, and large numbers of them transferred to a different class after the first day, even though her accent was much better than theirs.
At the same college, many students were very happy with the instruction of a Romanian ESL professor, who had an accent and made an occasional grammar mistake. A semester or two later, they were assigned to a Russian teacher with pronunciation and grammar just as good as that of the Romanian woman, but many students from Eastern Europe objected to being taught by a Russian. |
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Jamie (K)
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| #50 (permalink) Thu Mar 13, 2008 15:05 pm How do you define a native speaker? |
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If a person thinks that it is a discrimination just because he isn't called a native when he thinks he is good enough to be called a native, honestly, I cannot comprehend it.
I mean, how are you being discriminated against something you are not?
And I think learning a language is also putting yourself into the culture where the language is used and learning it. But I don't think it's enough to just 'learn' the culture. Because no matter how expert and advanced a speaker of Malay as a second language is, or no matter how much he understands my language and culture, he never had the experience that I had as a child as a native speaker of Malay.
For example, he never had the experience of coining words, and starting up slangs where everybody in the school followed like I had.
He never had the experience of being corrected or scolded for proper behaviour as a child in Malay like I had.
He never had the same Malay food or dressed in Malay clothes like I had or even had the experience of receiving love letters in Malay like I had.
The idea of everything was introduced to me in Malay. The idea of love, family, or even eating was introduced to me in Malay.
And no matter how advanced the Calculus or Algebra that I learned in English or Japanese, the very basic idea of counting was introduced to me in Malay.
I think all these little things invoked a lot of feelings and senses that shaped me as a native.
How does a person who learned my language as a second language compete with that? |
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NinaZara
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| #51 (permalink) Thu Mar 13, 2008 15:17 pm How do you define a native speaker? |
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| I would add that non-native speakers don't usually know baby talk in their second language. When someone who is known to be a foreigner produces accurate baby talk in his second language (like I can in one of them), it evokes surprised laughter from native speakers. |
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Jamie (K)
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| #52 (permalink) Thu Mar 13, 2008 15:31 pm How do you define a native speaker? |
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| Jamie (K) wrote: |
At a college where I taught, one ESL instructor was a native speaker of standard English but had a slight Jamaican accent. Students from all over the world detected this accent, and large numbers of them transferred to a different class after the first day, even though her accent was much better than theirs.
At the same college, many students were very happy with the instruction of a Romanian ESL professor, who had an accent and made an occasional grammar mistake. A semester or two later, they were assigned to a Russian teacher with pronunciation and grammar just as good as that of the Romanian woman, but many students from Eastern Europe objected to being taught by a Russian. |
Jamie,
How important do you think is the accent of an ESL instructor for the progress a learner is making?
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Torsten
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| #53 (permalink) Thu Mar 13, 2008 15:32 pm How do you define a native speaker? |
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At a college where I taught, one ESL instructor was a native speaker of standard English but had a slight Jamaican accent. Students from all over the world detected this accent, and large numbers of them transferred to a different class after the first day, even though her accent was much better than theirs.
Where there other Jamaican teachers at that college? If so, did they hold on to their students? Was the Jamaican teacher black? |
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Molly
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| #54 (permalink) Thu Mar 13, 2008 15:52 pm How do you define a native speaker? |
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| Torsten wrote: |
Hi Molly,
...Maybe you could give us a concrete example that shows how ESL teachers are discriminated against because of their language background. |
I can give a concrete context, but can mention no names, if that's OK. Here in Spain, I help out as an administrator in a language academy. Around 60% of the teaching staff are nonnative English speakers. All have a teaching certficate, but the academy only allows that 60% to teach up to the Intermediate Level.
Most of that 60% have been at the academy for a good 7-8 years, most would love to teach higher levels and are, IMO, fully capable of doing so. The management board at the academy refuse to allow that 60% to teach higher levels, even though some of that 60% teach higher levels in other academies.
Such contexts are many in the world of ESL/EFL.
Check out: Google Book Search
And what do you think is meant by "their strengths and weaknesses" here?
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It has been shown through the questionnaire that the belief that NESTs
are better English teachers than non-NESTs is still prevalent. Medgyes
pointed out six non-NEST advantages that overcome the presumed superiority
of the NESTs. In my opinion, it is as wrong to say that a NEST is always
better than a non-NEST, as to state the contrary. I believe that it depends
on the particular teaching situation. However, I share Medgyes' opinion that
the ideal school is one which has a good balance of NESTs and non-NESTs. One group can complement the other in their strengths and weaknesses.
http://fresno.cnice.mecd.es/~igam0003/PDFs/NON-NEST.pdf |
More:
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Status of the Nonnative-English-Speaking Teacher
The term nonnative-English-speaking teachers (NNESTs) has created a division among professionals in the ELT profession. Supporters of the term believe that it is necessary to distinguish between native- and nonnative-English-speaking teachers because their differences are, in fact, their strengths and should be recognized. Those who oppose the dichotomy feel that differentiating among teachers based on their status as native or nonnative speakers perpetuates the dominance of the native speaker in the ELT profession and contributes to discrimination in hiring practices.
http://www.cal.org/resources/Digest/0209maum.html |
It's the latter effect which concerns me and many of my colleagues. |
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Molly
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| #55 (permalink) Thu Mar 13, 2008 16:08 pm How do you define a native speaker? |
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The entire discussion is based on the assumption that it is possible to learn English by attending 'ESL classes'. So far I have not met one single person who has reached an advanced level of English through attending English classes regardless of the background and qualification of the teacher. Does a person whose English is 'advanced' really need an 'instructor' or 'teacher'? If so, does this instructor really have physically in the same room with the learner?
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| #56 (permalink) Thu Mar 13, 2008 16:16 pm How do you define a native speaker? |
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| Quote: |
| The entire discussion is based on the assumption that it is possible to learn English by attending 'ESL classes'. |
I make no such assumption. ESL classes can often help, be one aid, in achieving one's goals. And remember, not everyone wants to reach the levels you seem to have in mind for youself.
More on discrimination and the labels "nonnative" and "native":
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Native English speakers without teaching qualifications are more likely to be hired as ESL teachers than qualified and experienced NNESTs, especially outside the United States (Amin, 2000; Braine, 1999; Canagarajah, 1999; Rampton, 1996).
http://www.cal.org/resources/Digest/0209maum.html |
| Quote: |
| Does a person whose English is 'advanced' really need an 'instructor' or 'teacher'? If so, does this instructor really have physically in the same room with the learner? |
Not necessarily. Our academy teaches a lot of advanced students by phone, Skype, etc. If you were to hire such a teacher for yourself, to teach you through the Internet, for example, would you insist on him/her native-speaker?
And, Torsten, if you believe it's not possible to reach "an advanced level of English through attending English classes", is it really that important whether the ESL teacher is native or nonnative? |
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Molly
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| #57 (permalink) Thu Mar 13, 2008 16:25 pm How do you define a native speaker? |
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| Torsten wrote: |
| How important do you think is the accent of an ESL instructor for the progress a learner is making? |
Since most learners end up with a foreign accent anyway, the teacher's accent doesn't cause much trouble unless it really deviates from standard pronunciation a lot, such as when it adds syllables or replaces one important sound with another. |
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Jamie (K)
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| #58 (permalink) Thu Mar 13, 2008 16:26 pm How do you define a native speaker? |
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| Molly wrote: |
| Where there other Jamaican teachers at that college? If so, did they hold on to their students? Was the Jamaican teacher black? |
There were no other Jamaican English teachers at the college, and this Jamaican teacher was not black. |
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Jamie (K)
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| #59 (permalink) Thu Mar 13, 2008 16:27 pm How do you define a native speaker? |
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Hi All
Can we agree that the very concept of "native speaker" is in fact fuzzy? It is not clear-cut, is it? |
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Molly
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| #60 (permalink) Thu Mar 13, 2008 16:33 pm How do you define a native speaker? |
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| Native English speakers are not always better than non-native speaking teachers at the lower levels, and I have seen some native speakers who are quite a bit worse. However, at the highest levels of English instruction (by which I mean far beyond the "advanced" ESL level), a native feel for the language and a full native command of vocabulary and idioms is indispensable, and I have seen few non-native speakers who are capable of it. The foreign English speakers who teach ESL with me do not feel comfortable teaching English at an advanced level, even though they've been living an English-speaking existence in the US for as long as 25 years. |
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Jamie (K)
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| Pretty diagram | Music (How can anyone so young have the sense of rhythm?) |
