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 Thu Mar 13, 2008 17:40 pm How do you define a native speaker? |
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The foreign English speakers who teach ESL with me do not feel comfortable teaching English at an advanced level, even though they've been living an English-speaking existence in the US for as long as 25 years.
Really? That surprises me. Do you think you could ask one or two of them to join us here? To enter this discussion? It seems that such teachers assume most of their students will want to reach a much higher level of English than the teachers themselves have been able to reach in 25 years. How odd. |
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Molly
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| Thu Mar 13, 2008 17:46 pm How do you define a native speaker? |
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| Molly wrote: | The foreign English speakers who teach ESL with me do not feel comfortable teaching English at an advanced level, even though they've been living an English-speaking existence in the US for as long as 25 years.
Really? That surprises me. Do you think you could ask one or two of them to join us here? To enter this discussion? |
They wouldn't be interested.
I think the reason for their hesitation is that the longer you live with a language as a non-native speaker, the more you realize how much you don't know. That is, if you're honest with yourself. |
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Jamie (K)
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| Thu Mar 13, 2008 17:50 pm How do you define a native speaker? |
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A few good points here:
| Quote: | What is a native speaker? ...
The discrepancies in the figures point to the difficulty in establishing just what a "native speaker" is. The problem seems fairly straightforward in our midwestern American society, where a majority of people are still raised in one language that is used in most of the contexts they subsequently encounter in daily life. But this situation is not characteristic of all, or even most, societies around the world. More typically, people encounter multilingualism early in their lives, and develop competence in more than one language as a matter of course. If for example, children are raised in bi- or multilingual households, which language "counts" as their native language? If people learn a language at home in childhood, but do not have opportunities to use it later in the wider world of adulthood, does the childhood language still "count" as their native language? And what if children learn to speak one language at home, but must use a different language at school? How early must their learning of the school language begin in order to consider that language one of their "native" languages? How well must a person know the language in order tobe counted as a "native"? Clearly, it matters which criteria we choose in determining what a "native speaker" is. Different criteria yield different results.
http://www.missouristate.edu/vlc/dol/worldlanguages.asp#What%20is%20a%20native%20speaker? |
This question interest me most:
"If people learn a language at home in childhood, but do not have opportunities to use it later in the wider world of adulthood, does the childhood language still "count" as their native language?"
And good advice here, or not?
| Quote: | Besides that, we have met many teachers who say they are ‘native speakers’ when they come for interview because they spent 2 years of their childhood in e.g. Britain, but actually their English is far from perfect. We have also met teachers who say they are Polish - they spent only a short period abroad – but their foreign language is absolutely perfect. Sometimes, even their mannerisms are like British or Americans when speaking English! So you have to be careful, treat every candidate teacher on their merits - sometimes people are ready to say anything to get a job...
http://sympozjum.edu.pl/page.php?page=4&category=4&art=75 |
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Molly
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| Thu Mar 13, 2008 17:57 pm How do you define a native speaker? |
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| Jamie (K) wrote: | | I think the reason for their hesitation is that the longer you live with a language as a non-native speaker, the more you realize how much you don't know. That is, if you're honest with yourself. |
But is the "how much you don't know" that important to, for example, most ESL students? Would such teachers leave ESL student linguistically lacking in some way? |
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Molly
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| Thu Mar 13, 2008 18:09 pm How do you define a native speaker? |
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| Molly wrote: | | Jamie (K) wrote: | | I think the reason for their hesitation is that the longer you live with a language as a non-native speaker, the more you realize how much you don't know. That is, if you're honest with yourself. |
But is the "how much you don't know" that important to, for example, most ESL students? Would such teachers leave ESL student linguistically lacking in some way? |
At the very advanced level, yes. |
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Jamie (K)
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Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| Thu Mar 13, 2008 22:53 pm How do you define a native speaker? |
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| Molly wrote: | | I've also seen many native teachers who are no longer capable of such - mainly those who have been living outside English speaking countries for quite a while. So, as far as education goes, I think you would agree with me and a few other commentators that if nonnonative speakers can never deserve the label "native.speaker", so too should we resist giving the latter label to many ex-pat teachers. |
You feel discriminated against because you think you deserve the same label "native speaker" as ex-pats who have been living abroad for a while. But you're different. You can learn a lot, but there will always remain a lack. Ex-pats can get it back.
And I'm not saying that's a bad thing, just a different quality. It's a bit like comparing an apple (native speaker) with a pear (advanced learner). Let the apple rot for a while (live abroad), and it will look less like an apple than a pear. But put its core back in its indigenous soil, and you'll see a new apple growing. The pear can't be an apple, but it my taste sweeter 
I'd prefer the sweet pear if I was to choose my English teacher.
| Molly wrote: | And what you call simple idiosyncrasies may, in reality, be facts with a solid base. It may be the case that one cannot really be called a fully native speaker after living many years in a non-English speaking country.
So, can we agree that the very concept of "native speaker" is in fact fuzzy? It is not clear-cut, is it? |
From your point of view, the rotten apple is an apple no more. But I would still call it an apple; a bad apple. And I'd still call you a pear. A sweet one, of course
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Ralf
Language Coach
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| Thu Mar 13, 2008 23:09 pm How do you define a native speaker? |
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Torsten,
>>What do you mean by 'any native speaker from the street'?
I meant the average native speaker. Companies don't look for average communicators. They would much rather have someone who can speak properly and professionally even if they speak with accents and less fluently.
>>All you need to know in order to speak English 'properly' is what sounds good and what doesn't. Why do you need an American to explain basic grammar rules to you? If you really think those rules might help you in any way, you can find them on the Internet or in any dictionary or textbook. You should learn much more important things from an American native speaker than just basic grammar rules.
Unfortunately, non native speakers don't learn the way you described. We don't have the priviledge of knowing what sounds right or wrong (we have not developed this sense of understanding). A native speaker learns the language naturally without knowing but non native speakers have to learn and understand the rules. Learning English to me is just like learning how to do math. I need to first understand the formula and the concepts before I can starting using it. This is the struggle non native speakers face. A native speaker don't have to learn grammar necessarly to speak proper because they can use the way they've been hearing all their lives. If it sounds right and widely accepted, then it must be right.
To me, an English proficient user must understand how to use proper grammar and be able to explain it. Someone who explains grammar by saying, "this sounds better then that" is an indication that his/her language ability is no better than the average user.
>>If you really think those rules might help you in any way, you can find them on the Internet or in any dictionary or textbook
It is hard sometimes to find grammar rules that specifically apply/relate to the circumstance that is in question.
| Torsten wrote: | | ched133 wrote: | | In the U.S., most companies much rather have a non-native speaker who can speak properly and professionally than just any native speaker from the street. |
What do you mean by 'any native speaker from the street'?
| ched133 wrote: | | When i went back to Asia last summer, I saw many Americans teaching English and could not able to explain the basic grammar rules. They just say that this way sounds better and that way sounds bad. |
All you need to know in order to speak English 'properly' is what sounds good and what doesn't. Why do you need an American to explain basic grammar rules to you? If you really think those rules might help you in any way, you can find them on the Internet or in any dictionary or textbook. You should learn much more important things from an American native speaker than just basic grammar rules. |
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Ched133
You can meet me at english-test.net
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| Thu Mar 13, 2008 23:30 pm How do you define a native speaker? |
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| Ralf wrote: | | Ex-pats can get it back. |
In my experience it only takes two weeks to a month for the expat to get his full native abilities back. They're not gone, but just dormant.
Meanwhile, even the most learned second-language speaker of English can't acquire the full linguistic range of a native speaker in a month after moving to an English-speaking country, or even a whole lifetime.
That expat is a perfect example of the saying, "He's forgotten more than you'll ever learn." |
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Jamie (K)
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Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| Fri Mar 14, 2008 8:17 am How do you define a native speaker? |
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| Quote: | | They wouldn't be interested. |
How do you know that, Jamie? |
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Molly
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| Fri Mar 14, 2008 8:20 am How do you define a native speaker? |
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| Jamie (K) wrote: | | But is the "how much you don't know" that important to, for example, most ESL students? Would such teachers leave ESL student linguistically lacking in some way? |
At the very advanced level, yes.[/quote]
So, in effect, you're saying that very your "very advanced" level students would be more capable of teaching English than the nonnative, 25 years in the states, teachers at your college, right?
Why hasn't anyone helped your nonnative, 25 years in the states, teachers reach a "very advanced" level? |
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Molly
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| Fri Mar 14, 2008 8:29 am How do you define a native speaker? |
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| Quote: | | You feel discriminated against because you think you deserve the same label "native speaker" as ex-pats who have been living abroad for a while. |
Or I feel that expats should not necessarily deserve the label "native-speaker" in an educational context.
| Quote: | | Ex-pats can get it back. |
How?
| Quote: | | From your point of view, the rotten apple is an apple no more. But I would still call it an apple; a bad apple. And I'd still call you a pear. A sweet one, of course. |
Problem is, many academies and students world wide think of employing those "rotten apples" before they think of employing the local "produce". Why they do that, is the question. |
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Molly
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| Fri Mar 14, 2008 8:31 am How do you define a native speaker? |
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| Taking this outside ESL world for a moment: do you think a native-speaking teacher of, say, English history, would always be better "qualified" over a nonnative-speaking teacher to teach that subject? |
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Molly
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| Fri Mar 14, 2008 8:41 am How do you define a native speaker? |
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So, we have a situation of millions of people wanting or having to learn English but no where near enough native-speaking teachers to do the job. What do we do about that? Do we allow nonantives to teach only up to the upper-intermediate level and then hope the millions of students, who may wish to go on to Jamie's "very advanced" level, will be economically stable, or lucky, enough to employ a native-speaking teacher to take them the "rest of the way"? Or do we hope that such students will then become autodidactic and steer their own path to greater glory in English usage?
What do we do about the world wide lack of qualified native teachers? How can supply meet demand? |
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Molly
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| Fri Mar 14, 2008 8:45 am How do you define a native speaker? |
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| Quote: | | In my experience it only takes two weeks to a month for the expat to get his full native abilities back. They're not gone, but just dormant. |
I've not experienced that. Most expats I speak to say it takes much longer.
But a least you agree that in some cases such abilities are gone. So, for at least some of their working carreer, such teachers cannot be classed "fully native-speaking", right?
| Quote: | | That expat is a perfect example of the saying, "He's forgotten more than you'll ever learn." |
Then there are are expats about whom we could say "He's learned more that you ever have, dear native-speaker". Take Joseph Conrad, for example. |
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Molly
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