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 Sat Mar 15, 2008 12:14 pm How do you define a native speaker? |
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| ched133 wrote: | | In regards to learning the grammar rules i was mentioning, it is a way to help us learn and understand how sentences are formed. I'm not trying to say learning from listening is not important and all I'm saying is that everyone should understand grammar rules in order to master the language. In my opinion, grammar rules are something that must be learned and taught. Not knowing the rules will sound very uneducated. |
Well, I have met quite a number of people who were learning English and they came from all walk of life. Many of them had university degrees or worked as corporate executives. Although they were quite educated, most of those people did not remember many grammar rules of their native language so I doubt that learning English grammar rules would have been very effective for them. In comparison to German or Russian, there a very few rules in English but lots of exceptions, especially when reach the 'upper-intermediate/advanced' level. A lot of idioms don't follow any rules so how can you can learn them?
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Torsten
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| Sat Mar 15, 2008 12:53 pm How do you define a native speaker? |
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Hi ched133!
| Torsten wrote: | | ........ there a very few rules in English but lots of exceptions, especially when reach the 'upper-intermediate/advanced' level. A lot of idioms don't follow any rules so how can you can learn them? |
When I started improving my English skills (School-English) I took my Grammar-book and thought I´ve found the wisdom. Then I registered at this site and must recognize the whole truth  : of course it´s important to know the rules and the vocabulary but many idioms,sayings and terms differ from what you have learned till you practise your English and there is another amazing effect: If you google the term "English test" you will come across many sites that provide you short-tests for free which evaluate your skills after filling out their forms (for free, too). Using the English-rules you´ve learned from grammar-books and dictionaries only, you´ll never reach a higher intermediate level, even if you know all the words they asked for.
Regards
Michael |
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| Sat Mar 15, 2008 13:31 pm How do you define a native speaker? |
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| Quote: | Molly wrote:
So, in effect, you're saying that very your "very advanced" level students would be more capable of teaching English than the nonnative, 25 years in the states, teachers at your college, right?
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| Quote: | | Jamie wrote: I think you've understood my remark backwards. |
Let me see if I've got it right:
1. You think that native-teachers are more equipped to teach very advanced levels.
2. 25yrs-in-the-States, nonnative teachers at your college do not feel equipped to teach very advanced levels.
3. When students, after being taught by native-speakers, reach very aadvanced level, they are, in effect, linguistically more equipped than your 25yrs-in-the-States, nonnative teachers.
Is that about it? |
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Molly
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| Sat Mar 15, 2008 13:36 pm How do you define a native speaker? |
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| Quote: | | Well, you may have found in a dictionary that "fora" is the plural of "forum", but no native speaker in his right mind -- not even someone as erudite as Alan -- would use "fora" and expect other native speakers to understand it. They'd probably think he'd mispronounced the word "flora". |
Well, it's nice to have a choice, isn't it?
26 examples in 1 million words is not bad going for the BNC.
http://corpus.byu.edu/bnc/x.asp:
1 JNK the contracting out of local government services. I would certainly advocate the existence of more fora where the three sectors can come together to achieve mutual understanding and where c we
2 JNL that on, Sir Leonard, you said earlier, there should be more fora , to bring people together. That's right. W would you like to
3 JNL in fact it's probably more effective in some ways, than the great fora , forum, in which you have larger assemblies of people who enjoy th the
4 JNL want the press and the media involved, but actually it's a smaller fora on the local basis, which actually produces much better results, in my opinion
5 JNL Er, that's one of the, one of the debates about the fora , the forum. Er, I'm a little bit out of touch, so
6 EF3 as third parties. Legal and natural persons are denied access to most international fora ; exclusionary rules prevent them from being parties, interveners, or even witnesses in
7 EF3 on behalf of individuals mean that many individuals' claims with respect to treaties are brought before national fora under domestic law. International treaty law gives way to the constitutional law of the
8 EF3 which would be an excessive burden to place upon them compared with local judicial fora . The Court accepted that the agreement did not formulate precisely the inhabitants' rights
9 FD0 choose between the Family Court of Australia and the High Court of England as fora for deciding the children's future; (11) the judge was wrong on
10 EBA charters and conventions in local languages and in different appropriate places, institutions and fora ; b incorporating human rights as biblically derived, in Christian education curricula for schools
11 AM4 Scandinavia, North America and Japan. Britain managed to isolate itself in international fora --; such as the 35 Nation Convention on Long Range Transboundary Air Pollution convened by the
12 CA7 turquoise waters of the bay (Baia de Abra). The Ilhéu de Fora, with the lighthouse on it, is separated from the land by a 165m
13 CRJ wind-blown vagrants from South America. Our second day had been "earmarked" fora boat trip out to Volunteer Point to see the king penguins, and as it
14 EBD Experience" by Mavis Mayo from the Zimbabwe Broadcasting Corporation; "Rural Newspaper Fora" by Francis Kasoma of the Department of Mass Communication, University of Zambia;
15 GXG would be welcome to ensure consistency, as opposed to the varied nature of the coastal fora which are evolving on a voluntary basis. We would also like a commitment to
16 HJM on the Government to " exert as much pressure as possible on all international fora to ensure that worldwide action is taken to combat global warming ", but stresses
17 HWB created cities, each with their buildings necessary to Roman life: the central fora , the basilicas, temples, baths, circuses and amphitheatres. The remains of
18 HWB provide shelter from sun and rain. Rome At one period there were 17 fora in Rome. The largest of these was the Forum of Trajan but the oldest
19 HWB built on the same site, very little is left of any of these fora except the excavated site and fragments of buildings. The Forum Romanum owes its present
20 HWB was easy to defend. It was laid out on Roman plan with six fora , the Imperial Palace, theatres, baths, hippodrome, etc. It was
21 CDD of the attack was the political lobbying and the use of such institutions and fora as were open to the group, though few state-sponsored fora existed in which the
22 CDD such institutions and fora as were open to the group, though few state-sponsored fora existed in which the long-term concerns of the DUC could be articulated. The DUC
23 GXJ Additional short workshops and courses could be negotiated through the District Community Care Training Fora. Information on introductory training for Service Provision Staff (Adults) will be available
24 HJ1 evidence, at the appeal stage, into a variety of legal and quasi-legal fora . Award Title: Unemployment and the courts Award Type: Research Grant (Project
25 G0A making snide remarks at the soaps and quizzes, chat shows and audience participation fora , skimming the scummy surface of our effervescent present in preference to plumbing the adumbrate
26 B2T e.g. Chamber of Commerce, Rotary, TEC etc managerial expertise access to national fora e.g. CBI, EEF occasional funding for charitable/educational purposes work-experience placements. There are clear
I wonder how things are in other corpuses/corpora... |
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Molly
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| Sat Mar 15, 2008 14:39 pm How do you define a native speaker? |
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| Torsten wrote: | | In comparison to German or Russian, there a very few rules in English but lots of exceptions, especially when reach the 'upper-intermediate/advanced' level. A lot of idioms don't follow any rules so how can you can learn them? |
I run into situations also where the students have to know how to say something correctly, but there is no rule given in any grammar book. Of course, the structure they're trying to use is, in fact, "rule governed", but there's nowhere to look up the rule. I'm trained to figure out those rules, but what about students who have a teacher who can't do that? That's MOST students! A lot of learning English -- or any language -- involves figuring out patterns on your own. If you don't develop this ability, you stay stuck forever.
Another problem with learning grammar rules in the absence of other learning is that you can use them to produce sentences that no native speaker would ever say. Some German students guided me once to a website based in Germany that offered a lot of online English grammar tests. Everything in the tests followed grammar rules correctly, but very often the "right" answer was an impossible sentence that no one would ever use. So much for grammar rules. |
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Jamie (K)
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| Sat Mar 15, 2008 14:46 pm How do you define a native speaker? |
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| Molly wrote: | | 26 examples in 1 million words is not bad going for the BNC. |
I can do you one better: I googled the exact phrase "he don't" and got more than 4 million hits!
I got more than 4,000 hits for the phrase "hoards of people", and 859 for "a tough road to hoe".
So you can get millions of hits in the world's largest corpus (the Internet) even for bad grammar and use of the wrong word. |
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Jamie (K)
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| Sat Mar 15, 2008 14:49 pm How do you define a native speaker? |
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| Molly wrote: | Let me see if I've got it right:
1. You think that native-teachers are more equipped to teach very advanced levels.
2. 25yrs-in-the-States, nonnative teachers at your college do not feel equipped to teach very advanced levels. |
You've got 1 and 2 more or less right.
| Molly wrote: | | 3. When students, after being taught by native-speakers, reach very aadvanced level, they are, in effect, linguistically more equipped than your 25yrs-in-the-States, nonnative teachers. |
You pulled No. 3 straight out of your patootie, because I never said that. You cooked that up in your own imagination. |
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Jamie (K)
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| Sat Mar 15, 2008 14:52 pm How do you define a native speaker? |
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| Quote: | | Of course, the structure they're trying to use is, in fact, "rule governed", but there's nowhere to look up the rule |
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Could you give us a few examples of such? |
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Molly
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| Sat Mar 15, 2008 14:56 pm How do you define a native speaker? |
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| Molly wrote: | | Quote: | | Of course, the structure they're trying to use is, in fact, "rule governed", but there's nowhere to look up the rule |
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Could you give us a few examples of such? |
When do you say "in the nose" and "in his nose"? |
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Jamie (K)
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| Sat Mar 15, 2008 14:57 pm How do you define a native speaker? |
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| Jamie (K) wrote: | | Molly wrote: | | 26 examples in 1 million words is not bad going for the BNC. |
I can do you one better: I googled the exact phrase "he don't" and got more than 4 million hits!
I got more than 4,000 hits for the phrase "hoards of people", and 859 for "a tough road to hoe".
So you can get millions of hits in the world's largest corpus (the Internet) even for bad grammar and use of the wrong word. |
Are you aware of the difference between Google and the BNC, or even the BYU Corpus of American English, as far as "reliable sources" is concerned.
Not sure what all your fuss is about, Jamie. Are you saying we should always go for the most common usage? |
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Molly
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| Sat Mar 15, 2008 14:59 pm How do you define a native speaker? |
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| Jamie (K) wrote: | | Molly wrote: | | Quote: | | Of course, the structure they're trying to use is, in fact, "rule governed", but there's nowhere to look up the rule |
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Could you give us a few examples of such? |
When do you say "in the nose" and "in his nose"? |
Only one example? |
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Molly
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| Sat Mar 15, 2008 15:07 pm How do you define a native speaker? |
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| Quote: | | You pulled No. 3 straight out of your patootie, because I never said that. You cooked that up in your own imagination. |
Seems a logical conclusion, IMO.
BTW, on the nose thing, do you mean in examples such as...
Dryness and swelling can occur in the nose.
Dryness and swelling can occur in his nose. |
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Molly
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| Sat Mar 15, 2008 15:09 pm How do you define a native speaker? |
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| Molly wrote: | | Quote: | | You pulled No. 3 straight out of your patootie, because I never said that. You cooked that up in your own imagination. |
Seems a logical conclusion, IMO. |
Your logic is illogical, as we've amply seen. |
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Jamie (K)
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| Sat Mar 15, 2008 15:12 pm How do you define a native speaker? |
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| Jamie (K) wrote: | | Molly wrote: | | Quote: | | You pulled No. 3 straight out of your patootie, because I never said that. You cooked that up in your own imagination. |
Seems a logical conclusion, IMO. |
| Quote: | Jamie said:
Your logic is illogical, as we've amply seen. |
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Interesting to note the times you get all personal, all trollish. |
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Molly
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| Belief(s) | Music (How can anyone so young have the sense of rhythm?) |
