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 #17 (permalink) Fri Mar 28, 2008 14:14 pm Bad English gives a bad impression |
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| Molly wrote: |
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| Oh, here we go again! Molly's going to assert that Germlish should be accepted as equally valid to standard English. |
Hey, Jamie, you come from a country that uses the incorrect plural form of datum. :wink: |
I don't even know what you're talking about. The correct plural form of "datum" is "data", and that's what we use. |
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Jamie (K)
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Posts: 6552
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| #18 (permalink) Fri Mar 28, 2008 16:08 pm Bad English gives a bad impression |
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| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| Molly wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Oh, here we go again! Molly's going to assert that Germlish should be accepted as equally valid to standard English. |
Hey, Jamie, you come from a country that uses the incorrect plural form of datum. :wink: |
I don't even know what you're talking about. The correct plural form of "datum" is "data", and that's what we use. |
So it's the incorrect singular form that you over there use, right?
http://www.bartleby.com/68/19/1619.html
Point is, what was once is no longer. It may be going that way with information/informations, in some variants. One never knows.
By the way, the plural of English is Englishes, for many. Time moves on. |
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Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017
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| #19 (permalink) Fri Mar 28, 2008 16:11 pm Bad English gives a bad impression |
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| Molly wrote: |
| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| Molly wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Oh, here we go again! Molly's going to assert that Germlish should be accepted as equally valid to standard English. |
Hey, Jamie, you come from a country that uses the incorrect plural form of datum. :wink: |
I don't even know what you're talking about. The correct plural form of "datum" is "data", and that's what we use. |
So it's the incorrect singular form that you over there use, right?
http://www.bartleby.com/68/19/1619.html |
Read the article. The singular use of "data" is not wrong. English is not Latin. |
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Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 6552
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| #20 (permalink) Fri Mar 28, 2008 16:13 pm Bad English gives a bad impression |
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| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| Molly wrote: |
| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| Molly wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Oh, here we go again! Molly's going to assert that Germlish should be accepted as equally valid to standard English. |
Hey, Jamie, you come from a country that uses the incorrect plural form of datum. :wink: |
I don't even know what you're talking about. The correct plural form of "datum" is "data", and that's what we use. |
So it's the incorrect singular form that you over there use, right?
http://www.bartleby.com/68/19/1619.html |
Read the article. The singular use of "data" is not wrong. English is not Latin. |
And your English is not everyone's. :wink: |
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Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017
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| #21 (permalink) Fri Mar 28, 2008 16:33 pm Bad English gives a bad impression |
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| Molly wrote: |
| By the way, the plural of English is Englishes, for many. Time moves on. |
As you probably know, the noun information has several meanings. Two of them are:
1) formal criminal charge presented by a public officer
2) knowledge, intelligence, data
The first meaning has a plural form while the second doesn't. So it's wrong to say please give me some informations about this job.
If you do say it you are either ignorant or don't want to respect the habits and customs of other people.
TOEIC short conversations: Two conference participants introduce themselves to each other |
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Torsten
Learning Coach
Joined: 25 Sep 2003
Posts: 14507
Location: EU
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| #22 (permalink) Fri Mar 28, 2008 16:38 pm Bad English gives a bad impression |
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| Quote: |
The first meaning has a plural form while the second doesn't. So it's wrong to say please give me some informations about this job.
If you do say it you are either ignorant or don't want to respect the habits and customs of other people |
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Or you are in the process of making certain parts of English yours (see articles which ask whose English it is anyway).
One starting point could be:
"International agencies communicate with each other in English. But a new pattern of usage is developing that doesn't look to native English speakers. New meanings, pronunciation and syntax are evolving."
"Linguistic research at King's College London is investigating 'non-native' English. What has emerged in the research is a new form of the language with changes in grammar, syntax, pronunciation and meanings. More people now speak this form of English than speak 'native' English, and it's evolving and developing all the time."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/routesofenglish/storysofar/programme4_6.shtml
So, who/m should we respect, the native-speaker or the majority? :wink: |
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Molly
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Posts: 4017
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| #23 (permalink) Fri Mar 28, 2008 16:50 pm Bad English gives a bad impression |
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According to your article, "some varieties of English spoken in Africa and Asia are so localised that they can be almost unintelligible to outsiders". I would classify such mistakes as "informations", "advices" or "looking forward to hear" as bad and incorrect English rather than a new variety of English.
TOEIC short conversations: A prospective tenant has some questions about an apartment |
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Torsten
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| #24 (permalink) Fri Mar 28, 2008 16:53 pm Bad English gives a bad impression |
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| Quote: |
| I would classify such mistakes as "informations", "advices" or "looking forward to hear" as bad and incorrect English rather than a new variety of English. |
Really? Why not as: localisms, nationalisms, intranationally valid, innovative, necessary, etc? And how do you know what is or is not a variant? Are you a linguist?
Proceed with caution when labeling other people's use of English:
| Quote: |
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=advices&r=66
Information communicated; news. Often used in the plural: advices from an ambassador. |
Your bias may be based on a limited knowledge of the language. |
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Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
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Torsten
Learning Coach
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| #26 (permalink) Fri Mar 28, 2008 17:18 pm Bad English gives a bad impression |
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EnglishUser ... I mean Molly, you just keep beating the same dead horse. No one accepts your premise other than a rather small number of intellectuals in academia, where people are shielded from the consequences of their own beliefs.
And you have an irritating habit of taking definition #3 or #4 of some word -- usages so rarely employed as to be unknown to most people -- and extrapolating from those that all usages should conform to that rare one. Just because you can dig deep into a dictionary entry and find a rarely employed or archaic countable usage of a noun doesn't mean that making the noun in its most common meaning countable is correct. |
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Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 6552
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| #27 (permalink) Fri Mar 28, 2008 17:32 pm Bad English gives a bad impression |
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| Molly wrote: |
Proceed with caution when labeling other people's use of English:
| Quote: |
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=advices&r=66
Information communicated; news. Often used in the plural: advices from an ambassador. |
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Please take a look at the following sentences:
How many times have you read this book?
How much time do you spend reading every day?
In the first sentence, the noun 'time' is countable in the second it's not. Native speakers and advanced ESL speakers don't say "please give me an advice" or "give me some advices" and I'm quite sure that linguists don't either.
TOEIC short conversations: Two women discuss recent discount sales at a store |
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Torsten
Learning Coach
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| #28 (permalink) Fri Mar 28, 2008 22:35 pm Bad English gives a bad impression |
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| Torsten wrote: |
| What do you mean by "linguist"? |
noun: a specialist in linguistics |
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Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017
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| #29 (permalink) Fri Mar 28, 2008 22:37 pm Bad English gives a bad impression |
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| Quote: |
| Just because you can dig deep into a dictionary entry and find a rarely employed or archaic countable usage of a noun doesn't mean that making the noun in its most common meaning countable is correct. |
And just because some native speaker says something should always remain the way it is will it do so. The language is not yours to control, Jamie - no matter how much you would like it to be so. See history and language change, etc. |
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Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017
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| #30 (permalink) Fri Mar 28, 2008 22:48 pm Bad English gives a bad impression |
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| Quote: |
| In the first sentence, the noun 'time' is countable in the second it's not. |
"Time" is not the same word in both sentences.
When you state that "advices" is incorrect, you are wrong, or at least limited in your explanation.
| Quote: |
Native speakers and advanced ESL speakers don't say "please give me an advice" or "give me some advices" and I'm quite sure that linguists don't either.
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As shown above, native English speakers are fast becoming the minority? Should a minority control a language? |
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Molly
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Joined: 12 Feb 2008
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