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 #32 (permalink) Thu Apr 10, 2008 2:54 am Castration? |
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| Molly wrote: |
| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| Honestly, I have worked in factories, and I've worked in many corporations, and I've witnessed more incidences of false sexual harassment accusations than I have of men touching women sexually. |
Really? Were you there each time a man sexually touched a woman? |
Of course I was. I am a supernatural being, can see everything and can be in several places at the same time, just by willing it. |
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Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 5652
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| #33 (permalink) Thu Apr 10, 2008 7:10 am Castration? |
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| Quote: |
| It's unethical to castrate them, because if the man is innocent and turns out to have been railroaded, you can never put the innocent man's body parts back on. It's immoral to execute them. |
So you would say the same for capital punishment for murder, right? If you execute an innocent person...
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| Molly, would you approve of state-mandated hysterectomies, clitorectomies and mastectomies for women pedophiles? |
I might if it would help prevent them reoffending. Does it?
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| I'm left to assume that a certain class of women simply wants an excuse to remove men's genitals. |
A rather naive and somewhat mysoginistic conclusion, IMO. |
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Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017
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| #34 (permalink) Thu Apr 10, 2008 7:17 am Castration? |
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| Quote: |
| Of course I was. I am a supernatural being, can see everything and can be in several places at the same time, just by willing it. |
Figures. |
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Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017
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| #35 (permalink) Thu Apr 10, 2008 11:36 am Castration? |
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| Molly wrote: |
| Quote: |
| It's unethical to castrate them, because if the man is innocent and turns out to have been railroaded, you can never put the innocent man's body parts back on. It's immoral to execute them. |
So you would say the same for capital punishment for murder, right? If you execute an innocent person... |
That's right. |
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Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 5652
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| #36 (permalink) Mon Apr 14, 2008 13:55 pm Castration? |
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So you would say the same for capital punishment for murder, right? If you execute an innocent person...
That's right.
The thing I can't understand is why you think we should avoid castrating someone beacuse he may be innocent, but you think it's OK to slam a could-be-innocent in jail for life. Can you explain your thinking on that, Jamie? |
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Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017
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| #37 (permalink) Mon Apr 14, 2008 14:54 pm Castration? |
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| Molly wrote: |
| The thing I can't understand is why you think we should avoid castrating someone beacuse he may be innocent, but you think it's OK to slam a could-be-innocent in jail for life. Can you explain your thinking on that, Jamie? |
The thing I can't understand is why you're so in love with the idea of cutting off a man's reproductive anatomy. There must be some deep-seated psychological reason why you want to see men castrated.
If a man is mistakenly convicted of a heinous crime, and he is sentenced to life in prison, in 2, 5, even 14 years, he can be released and helped to integrate himself back into normal society as best he can. Meanwhile, in prison, there are a lot of productive and even important things he can do with his life. He can study and get a university degree, he can learn a trade, he can minister to other prisoners and help them change their thinking, and perform quite a few other good works. Therefore, those years will not be totally lost.
If you mistakenly convict an innocent man of the same crime, but you sentence him to death, and he is not exonerated before his execution, once he is found to be innocent, you can't give him his life back.
If you mistakenly convict a man of sexual abuse, and then you castrate him, you can't give him his anatomy back.
In both cases, it's better to keep the person in prison, all in one piece.
Do you believe that the state should sterilize black people and the "feeble-minded"? There was a big movement to do this in the 1920s and 1930s -- and some black people even went along with it -- and the arguments for something so insane sounded just as reasonable as the ones for castrating child molesters do today. |
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Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 5652
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| #38 (permalink) Mon Apr 14, 2008 15:50 pm Castration? |
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| Molly wrote: |
| Should convicted paedophiles be forcibly castrated? |
did you see the film hard candy? it deals with that subject in quite an unusual way |
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My_Am
I'm new here and I like it ;-)
Joined: 06 Feb 2008
Posts: 13
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| #39 (permalink) Mon Apr 14, 2008 16:39 pm Castration? |
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| Quote: |
| The thing I can't understand is why you're so in love with the idea of cutting off a man's reproductive anatomy. There must be some deep-seated psychological reason why you want to see men castrated. |
More of The Disney Guide to Psychology? :lol:
Do you believe that the state should sterilize black people and the "feeble-minded"? There was a big movement to do this in the 1920s and 1930s -- and some black people even went along with it -- and the arguments for something so insane sounded just as reasonable as the ones for castrating child molesters do today.
In the latter, maybe we'd do better asking the parents of those who have been abused, or even the victims themselves.
| Quote: |
| If a man is mistakenly convicted of a heinous crime, and he is sentenced to life in prison, in 2, 5, even 14 years, he can be released and helped to integrate himself back into normal society as best he can. |
Yes, we know that, but it seems you suggest keeping such men in prison till the end of their life. Am I right?
| Quote: |
| and the arguments for something so insane sounded just as reasonable as the ones for castrating child molesters do today. |
But what is insane about castrating paedophiles, if we can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are guilty? |
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Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017
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| #40 (permalink) Mon Apr 14, 2008 17:17 pm Castration? |
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| Molly wrote: |
| In the latter, maybe we'd do better asking the parents of those who have been abused, or even the victims themselves. |
Many parents of molested children actually want the suspect not just castrated, but killed, and some of them actually do the deed themselves. This is not a good policy, considering how many thousands of men have been falsely accused and convicted of rape and child molestation.
| Molly wrote: |
| Quote: |
| If a man is mistakenly convicted of a heinous crime, and he is sentenced to life in prison, in 2, 5, even 14 years, he can be released and helped to integrate himself back into normal society as best he can. |
Yes, we know that, but it seems you suggest keeping such men in prison till the end of their life. Am I right? |
Or until they're exonerated. At least they're not dead, and if they're innocent they still have a chance to do some good in their lives or to be released.
| Molly wrote: |
| Quote: |
| and the arguments for something so insane sounded just as reasonable as the ones for castrating child molesters do today. |
But what is insane about castrating paedophiles, if we can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are guilty? |
Nothing can be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. Besides, the standard of justice is "beyond a reasonable doubt", not beyond the shadow of a doubt. If it were the latter, you couldn't convict anyone of anything.
The insane part about castrating pedophiles is that it gives the state power over the physical integrity of the individual citizen, just as state-ordered lobotomies and judicially ordered sterilization of the "feeble-minded" (usually lower-class and/or dark skinned) did in the bad old days. This was and is usually based on the "expert testimony" of some intellectual, such as a psychologist, and those people have a long track record of being wrong.
The insane thing is trusting the state with that level of power over the individual in the justice system. It's little different from mandating abortion in a one-child policy. |
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Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 5652
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| #41 (permalink) Mon Apr 14, 2008 18:13 pm Castration? |
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| Quote: |
| This is not a good policy, considering how many thousands of men have been falsely accused and convicted of rape and child molestation. |
Where are the figures? Link?
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| At least they're not dead, and if they're innocent they still have a chance to do some good in their lives or to be released. |
If ever.
| Quote: |
| The insane part about castrating pedophiles is that it gives the state power over the physical integrity of the individual citizen, just as state-ordered lobotomies and judicially ordered sterilization of the "feeble-minded" (usually lower-class and/or dark skinned) did in the bad old days. |
So no going into other people's countries to exteminate terrorists then, right? |
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Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017
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| #42 (permalink) Mon Apr 14, 2008 18:26 pm Castration? |
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| Molly wrote: |
| So no going into other people's countries to exteminate terrorists then, right? |
You are so predictable.
I suppose you approve of Saddam Hussein's government practice of running electrical wire up detainees' urethras and turning on the voltage. Or giving opposition leaders electro-shock until they're retarded and eating out of garbage cans as an example to others. It's not that different from your preferred policy of the state dealing with people's anatomy.
Do you know a lot of Iraqis personally, by the way? |
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Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 5652
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| #43 (permalink) Mon Apr 14, 2008 19:58 pm Castration? |
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| Quote: |
| I suppose you approve of Saddam Hussein's government practice of running electrical wire up detainees' urethras and turning on the voltage. Or giving opposition leaders electro-shock until they're retarded and eating out of garbage cans as an example to others. It's not that different from your preferred policy of the state dealing with people's anatomy. |
Nope, don't approve of that. Do you? So no going into other people's countries to exterminate terrorists then, right?
| Quote: |
| Do you know a lot of Iraqis personally, by the way? |
Why do you ask? |
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Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017
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| #44 (permalink) Mon Apr 14, 2008 20:09 pm Castration? |
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| Molly wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I suppose you approve of Saddam Hussein's government practice of running electrical wire up detainees' urethras and turning on the voltage. Or giving opposition leaders electro-shock until they're retarded and eating out of garbage cans as an example to others. It's not that different from your preferred policy of the state dealing with people's anatomy. |
Nope, don't approve of that. Do you? So no going into other people's countries to exterminate terrorists then, right? |
Acts of war are not the same as civil crimes.
So I take it you don't agree with the idea of invading a European country to throw out a government that killed 6 million Jews, or of invading the Balkans to stop ethnic cleansing.
By the way, do you approve of amputation of limbs as a penalty for theft?
| Molly wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Do you know a lot of Iraqis personally, by the way? |
Why do you ask? |
Because your opinions about what is happening in the Middle East sound like those of someone who never talks to Iraqis, or isn't close enough to them so that they'll tell what they think. |
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Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 5652
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| #45 (permalink) Mon Apr 14, 2008 22:27 pm Castration? |
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| Quote: |
| So I take it you don't agree with the idea of invading a European country to throw out a government that killed 6 million Jews, |
A late entry for some country or other?
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| Because your opinions about what is happening in the Middle East sound like those of someone who never talks to Iraqis, or isn't close enough to them so that they'll tell what they think. |
Now which Iraqis would you be talking about? These?
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This has not translated into more positive feelings about the American presence, however. Only 20% express any confidence in US occupation forces - which means that despite all the COIN work, US forces remain the single organization in the survey in which Iraqis express the least confidence. For comparisons sake, the Iraqi Army gets 65% confidence, the Police 67% - an intriguing finding, presumably heavily divided along sectarian lines given the general view that the Army has become more professionalized while the Police remain nastily sectarian. Local leaders have the confidence of 47%, the Awakening Councils 56%, and the national government 48%, while local militias have the confidence of only 22% - making them the only ones to give the U.S. forces a run for their money in the non-confidence race.
abuaardvark.typepad.com/abuaardvark/2008/03/keep-asking-kee.html |
Opinion:
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The primary force driving American policy has been and remains ... the protection of U.S. economic interests, irrespective of the undemocratic nature or human rights record of the groups and governments with whom it has allied.
thirdworldtraveler.com/Terrorism/RootDoctrine_STATUS.html |
Choose your maniac?
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The Khmer Rouge were a strange brand of leftist radicals, usually denominated communist, but in reality were rather more nativistic, chauvinistic and anti-modernist. Since they were anti-Soviet, they received Washington's support as long as the Cold War continued. Paradoxically, when it ended, Washington called for the trial by an international tribunal of Pol Pot and other top leaders of the Khmer Rouge. The support resulted from the Cold War configuration at the time, in which the Soviets backed Vietnam and the government it imposed on Cambodia, while China and Washington backed the Khmer Rouge, the enemy of Vietnam. Washington's support for the Khmer Rouge was more egregious, given that its beneficiary was consistently charged with committing genocide.
thirdworldtraveler.com/Terrorism/RootDoctrine_STATUS.html |
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Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017
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