New rules

[Ralf]

In defiance of intrinsic contradiction in terms, it seems that there are quite a number of non-native speakers with native-speaker-like abilities who have taken to the idea of regulating the English language.

What's your take on this? Just a cheap excuse to disguise a lack of proficiency, blasphemy or auspicious gate opener for learners and the illiterate?
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[lost_soul]

[Molly]

[Molly]

[Torsten]

Hi Ralf,

I think it's almost impossible to impose any new language rules since language develops itself. Nobody 'owns' the English language so how can you create rules for its behaviour? Non-native speakers can only learn English by observing native speakers and developing similar language habits. Trying to change the English language artificially is a bit like telling people how to think. It won't work. Language is an integral part of a culture. For example, the English language reflects the mentality of native English speakers and their way of thinking. If a non-native speaker tries to create new rules for the English language no native speaker will take such an attempt seriously.
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[Molly]

[lost_soul]

[stew.t.]

Hi Ralf, and guys

To take the issue into the arena of current debate, there is the discussion as to non native to non native communication, and the influence on the notion of a possible "International English".

The point here is that some set rules can be ignored in the sense of comprehension, but should they be;

e.g. third person "s". A non native speaker may forget the S "muss mit", but does it hinder understanding.
Maybe not, however can we go so far as to omitting the use of S in this way?

Or as one of my students today put forward, it is fine to use;

"You have to hand the project in till Monday".

He had learned this from a German teacher of English. However would this wrong usage of a preposition cause confusion outside of Germany?
And is it really far removed from the proper usage;
"You have till Monday to hand the project in."

The issue here could be, is the non native use and the assumption going beyond usage outside their own culture /nationalities application of the language?

Surely it can be argued that natural adjustment to your audience, listener is better that trying to enforce rigid rule changes.

After all even native speakers may adjust their language to a common ground, if confusion is caused by vocabulary or grammar.

Americans, Australians, Kiwis, Canadians and Brits use language different amongst people in their locale as opposed to people from other English native speaking nations or even regions for that matter.

The same could be applied to German, Swiss, Austrian usage of German or even Bavarian and Saxon.

Communication is surely more about finding this common ground, than the regulations.

Do you have a civil servant lurking in you somewhere Ralf or are you rebelling against it? ; )

cheers stew.t.

[HamburgEnglish]

I feel so enlightened. !

Rob (looking for a 10Kb picture of me)

[Yankee]

Hi Stew

What would you tell your German students this sentence means?
"Please have that posted online till the first of the month."

Wouldn't you agree that the sentence above means something totally different from this:
"Please have that posted online by the first of the month."

When I was teaching in Germany, it often seemed that this usage of the word 'by' was one of the best kept secrets in Germany.
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Amy
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ESL teacher, translator, and a native speaker of American English

[lost_soul]

Hi, Amy

If I understood Stew correctly, he meant that You have to hand the project in till Monday is not a proper sentense, and that it should read You have till Monday to hand the project in

Do you agree that You have to hand the project in till Monday sounds wrong ? (in the sense that you have to hand the project in, and you must do it anytime before Monday.)

Thanks a bunch !

[Yankee]

Hi Alex

Yes, I also understood Stew's point and I did not disagree with him. That is one way to correct the sentence.

I wanted to make the point that the word 'till' can be misunderstood if it is used incorrectly. Both of my sentences are grammatically correct. However, they do not mean the same thing.

The problem for speakers of German is that the German word 'bis' can mean either 'by' or 'until'. Unfortunately, a very large number of Germans don't seem to know (or remember) how to use 'by' to mean 'not later than'.
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Amy
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ESL teacher, translator, and a native speaker of American English

[Fan of Arabian horses]

Hi Amy,

seems the "till-by" issue is a secret in Germany in fact.

First how I´ve got your point:

-"till date" means before date

-"by date" means the last point of/in time.

As for me the difference to the German "bis" is that "bis" always means before and if the deadline ends with date´s ending Germans would add the word "inclusive date".

However, since your recent post , at least for me, the "by opportunity" won´t be a secret any longer.

Michael

[Yankee]

Hi Michael

Basically, my sentences mean the following:

"Please have that posted online until the first of the month." --> Post it now or as soon as possible and leave it online until the first of the month. After the first of the month, it should no longer be online.

"Please have that posted online by the first of the month." --> At some point in time between now and the first of the month, it should be online. After you post it, it will remain online.

In Stew's example, a native speaker of English would probably assume that a non-native speaker had simply made a mistake. However, I think that assumption is far less likely in my first sentence.

So, an incorrect use of 'until' can possibly result in quite a misunderstanding.
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_________________
Amy
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ESL teacher, translator, and a native speaker of American English

[lost_soul]

Hi, Amy

So, sum it up, Please have that posted online by the first of the month basically means that You have until (or till) the first of the month to post that online, right?