Hope olympic games will be held successfully

[Aleaf]

"Every time you mention political persecution to a loyal Chinese, they start bringing up the big boogie man Falun Gong, and they ignore the other people being persecuted. Falun Gong is obviously used as a red herring to divert attention from other oppression, and in robot-like fashion, these Chinese obey the strategy."

I mentioned Falungong wasn't because i wanna divert somebody's attention. I just take it as an example becuase i think it is rather well-known. See you misread me again just like you did for many times.

"As to something being wrong with someone's nervous system, remember that Marxism-Leninism and Maoism are also religions. Their premises have been proven over nearly a century to be false, and it's been clear that they cause widespread death and even famine. "

Really? are you sure? let's see will it survive you. widespread death and even famine? It seems the great depression in 1930s' cuased a lot misery as well.The key point is how people operate a certain system and make adjustment according to the situations.there is no perfect system no matter it is capitalism or socialism.

"Yet, mostly through the threat of arrest and execution, as well as controlling the access to work and food, the Chinese communist party succeeded in convincing people to believe in them. That is how they induced people to believe in "such a stupid so-called religion" as communism. Who has got something wrong with their nervous system, Aleaf?"

What are you talking about? controlling the access to work and food? Now ? in china? if you call communism a religion, what about capitalism? Don't condemn badly, man.
I know the stupid so-called communism didn't induce people to cut their belies to find some stupid "rolling wheeling" and dind't cheat people there is a stupid so-called heaven. The stupid falungong tells its believer don't ask for a help from a doctor when he/she falls ill, instead their hierach will save them. Anybody who believes such kinda stupid shit is definitely wrong with his/her nerve system.

As to limited access to foreign media, yes, it is true, but if we are really interested in what countries reports, we can get them through some softwares. It is very funny when Beijing olymic torch relay was made a mess in some countries, many chinese got the news from CNN or BBC. CCTV was always lagged behind out of some considerations, maybe politically. Many Chinese condemned it very much. But I could firmly tell you if the pictures were sent immediately at that time, embassies of those countries would be in danger because of angry chinese. To the websites you mentioned,if Chinese people know what they are writing, I think those websites will be crackdown by chinese netizens not relating to the government. You don't know chinese very much. I am sure you contacted several overseas chinese,and misregarded them as reprentatives of Chinese. I am definitely not a Communist,and I dunt believe in it, but as a common citizen, I know the fact that the chinese communist party has liberated most chinese(Not everybody, to some people a kinda liberation means a disaster to some other people) and now the you called dictorial party is making chinese richer and richer. And the party is changing and improving at its speed.

Chinese respect Mao Tsdong because he and his followers dared to challenge and disobey countries like USA, Britain, Franch and so on which invaded and did great damage to Chinese.We don't admire many countries. yes they have democracy, but they have to accept the fact that usa militery bases are in their territory. It is not an equal relationship between two countries. I believe China will realize a fully democracy in the future but the date and the way should be grasped totally in Chinese' hands. And it shouldn't endanger Chinese economy.

By the way when you are talking about China, don't mention countries like EAST GERMAN, SOVIET UNIONS. Because I don't think the present China is the same as them.
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Try to change youself before you try to change others.

[Aleaf]

Chinese people like pursuing democracy, but the democracy might be not totally the same as yours in a short term. When did the Knights of the Round Table come out which embodies the idea of equality ? When did Chinese overthrow the emporor? so you see, history is different and the way of think is different.
China has been an independent countries without foreign intervention. But when those interventions came to China around 1900, the inflence was deadly and chinese suffered greatly.So in Chinese opinion, any a foreign intervention is unacceptable no matter the intervention is from the former soviet union or from America. We say NO. We will solve the problems on our own instead of under the pressure from outside, not to mention some political intentions. If you really care about Chinese, you should do some practical jobs to make Chinese lead a better/richer life through steady reform instead of endless condemn or Jacobinical changes. It is the common people who suffer a Jacobinical Change for some certain people's dream.
_________________
Try to change youself before you try to change others.

[Jamie (K)]

Aleaf, why don't you click on the links I gave a few entries up, read the articles and comment on them? Since you say your media access is not filtered, I assume you can see them.

Here are the links again.

http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=14884

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,517283,00.html

[AngieD]

Aleaf,

I never mentioned Dalai Lama in my posts,... and it was not even relevant to anything I said anywhere. If you wish to comment on what I posted, or criticize what I posted, feel free do so. But please, point me towards specific sources that counter the facts that I have presented. How else can you change my mind if you will not do that? ((for example, what according to Chinese historians happened in (or was related to) Tibet in years 1900-1920))

Also, you say that you have no need to read something and then comment on that specific thing… I mean, does that even make sense?

At the same time I wonder, what is your definition of an independent country? If, a country manages to defend itself and declares independence… would you consider it independent at least till it losses that independence?

Interesting links Jamie(K), thanks for posting them.

Aleaf,… that was a first time I saw these articles, would you mind adding/commenting some on them?

[Jamie (K)]

[Aleaf]

Angie: you wrote:If, a country manages to defend itself and declares independence… would you consider it independent

It is very illogical. A country doesn't need to declares independenc. Whether a place can be called a country depends on many elements. In my opinion, the elements include: history,politics, culture.
I think an independent country first should have
Independent diplomacy, that is it should be admitted by the vast majority of countries all over the world.

Britain launched two invasions into Tibet, in 1888 and during 1903 and 1904, in an attempt to build up an exclusive colonial influence in the region. It also tried to separate Tibet from China and ultimately turn it into a "buffer zone" against British-controlled northern India.
FIRST INVASION: VIOLATION OF CHINESE SOVEREIGNTY

After the Opium War, Britain planned to build a road as a trade channel between China's southwestern Yunnan province and Myanmar in a move to scramble for more economic benefits in the region.

During the pre-construction research session in 1875, a translator named Augustus Raymond Margary from the British consulate in Shanghai was killed as a result of local protests. Britain grabbed the opportunity and managed to force the Chinese Qing government to sign the Chefoo Convention, which allowed the British to "visit and explore" Tibet.

Having realized the greedy nature of the British invaders, the local Tibetan government built heavy fortifications on Ling Tu mountain along the border between Tibet and Sikkim in 1886.

Britain, outraged and which allegedly claimed the fortified area within the British-controlled Sikkim territory, warned the Qing government of military action unless the defensive measures were dismantled in time. Having tried in vain with warnings, in 1888 Britain launched military attacks against Tibet. Tibetan troops were defeated largely due to their outdated weapons and shortage of supplies.

After the war, the Qing government signed two more unfair treaties with Britain in 1890 and 1893. As a result, the Qing government acknowledged that Sikkim remained under British control and accepted Britain's proposal of border divisions between Tibet and Sikkim.

The Qing government also agreed to open the southern Tibetan city of Yadong (Chomo) as a business hub where Britain was granted extraterritoriality and exempted from trade duties on both imports and exports and five years.

The unfair treaties not only violated China's sovereignty but also infringed the interests of the local Tibetan government.

In spite of the treaties signed, Tibetans continued to herd in their home pasture land. They even managed to destroy the border stones erected by Britain in an open protest against the border division and the unfair treaties. SECOND INVASION: MASSACRE OF TIBETAN SOLDIERS AND CIVILIANS

At a time when Britain used India as its staging ground to press ahead its invasion plan of Tibet, the Qinghai-Tibet plateau also became the target of aggression by czarist Russia.

Britain considered the Himalayas as the barrier of the Indian subcontinent and Tibet, located just on the other side of the mountains, should belong to Britain's sphere of influence.

If Tibet were to fall into the hands of Russia, British India would be completely exposed to the threat of Russia. Governor-General and Viceroy of British India Goerge Curzon believed that Britain should pursue the Forward Policy to preempt Russia in the scramble for control of Tibet.

In July 1901, Secretary of State for British India George Hamilton delivered a note to the Russian Foreign Ministry, claiming that Britain would not keep silent on the contacts between Russia and Tibet.

In a letter to Hamilton, Curzon even proclaimed that "We regard the so-called suzerainty of China over Tibet as a constitutional fiction -- a political affectation which has only been maintained because of its convenience for both parties." He urged the government to approve the plan of the British invasion of Tibet.

In 1903, under the name of negotiations, an invading army sent by the government of British India crossed the border line and intruded into Tibet.

Led by F.E. Young husband, the British Army went into Pagri through Yadong. On March 31, 1904, the invading troops clashed with Tibetan troops in Qumigxung, north of Pagri.

Armed with outdated weapons including swords, spears and matchlock guns, most of the 1000-odd Tibetan troops were injured or killed by the British troops, an old colonial power, with maxim guns and big guns, the most advanced weapons of the day.

This was the British imperialists' savage and impudent massacre of Tibetan soldiers and civilians.

Gyangze County fell twice, on April 11 and on July 6, 1904. On August 3, British troops invaded Lhasa, first time the ancient holy city was trampled under the iron heel of imperialists throughout the ages.

Days before the British invasion, the 13th Dalai Lama left the Potala Palace with a handful of his followers and fled to Outer Mongolia through China's Qinghai province.

The British invading troops withdrew from Lhasa in late September 1904, as supplies and communications could not be guaranteed.

Britain's two invasions in Tibet were blatant armed aggression, adding that it has been the longest among all the aggressive activities launched by imperialists in Tibet.
_________________
Try to change youself before you try to change others.

[Aleaf]

Conclusion:
Britain expanded its influence in Tibet after the two wars of aggression, which also fostered a hotbed for the emergence of the pro-Britain upper-class elements of Tibet, Hu said.

After realizing that the plateau could not be conquered by armed forces, the Britain imperialists began to build up their influence in the upper-class elements of Tibet, instigating them to oppose the Chinese government in a bid to separate Tibet from China, bring it into the British sphere of influence and become its dependency as well as a buffer zone in protection of the northeastern border of British India, Hu said.

"This was an invasion," said Patrick French, a British scholar and author of "Young husband, the Last Great Imperial Adventurer," when talking about Great Britain's invasion of Tibet in 1999.

During a small workshop held in London in the Fall of 2003, a few British scholars including French reached consensus that robbery admittedly occurred in the Tibet war.

In his book "Duel In The Snows" published in 2004, British scholar Charles Allen points out that in order to become the first group of Europeans in that area, F. E. Young husband and his clique created all kinds of conspiracies and intrigues to cheat the public and the media.

These were the most commonly used despicable means by imperialists at the time. History is a mirror of reality. Anyone's attempt to agitate for "Tibetan independence", like the serious crimes of aggression against Tibet committed by imperialist powers in the past, is doomed to failure.
_________________
Try to change youself before you try to change others.

[Jamie (K)]

Aleaf, why don't you go to the links I posted, read the articles and give us your comments? I've asked you twice. Here they are again.

http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=14884

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,517283,00.html

I don't see why you haven't done this already. Is it possible you aren't allowed to access them?

[Aleaf]

As to Taiwan, it doesn't have the right to be independent. The Chinese national Party was defeated by the Chinese Communist Party in 1949 and then fled to Taiwan. If not the USA sent troop to Korea in 1950, China would have got taiwan back.
_________________
Try to change youself before you try to change others.

[Aleaf]

Yahoo Acknowledges Role in Arrest of Chinese Dissidents... hehehehe I have no idea about that news...And it is beyond my interest.

By the way in the website you recommended to me, I saw Dalai's face again. YO!! he is really very popular nowadays.
_________________
Try to change youself before you try to change others.

[Jamie (K)]

[BelajarEnglish]

Hiii all, I havent got involved in your "discussion". No offended to anyone here. I just have few questions.
But I am just wondering what is wrong with dalai lama?
Why China government exiled his holiness Dalai Lama? while other countries treat Dalai lama as a superior guess?

In addition, it there any specify reasons why Taiwan want to be independent rather than being under same flag as china?
One more question, is Hongkong citizen happy with their status right now? Or they were happier with their former status? If yes, is there any solid prove?

I will really appreciate if someone could give me answers. Since there a lot of unsteady ( contradicting form one to other) answers around internet or in verbally discussion, even in between China Chinese?

[Jamie (K)]

[Aleaf]

Jamie(K) Thanks so much for your excellent detailed explaination. But dunt you think it is better for a Chinese to introduce situation in China? If anybody here wanna know America, it is your job,OKAY?

BelajarEnglish : As to Dalai, Taiwan, etc, people here have talked enough for us to know each other's opinion. And i think none of us would give up our own easily. We dunt need repetition.
_________________
Try to change youself before you try to change others.

[Jamie (K)]