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 #17 (permalink) Fri May 16, 2008 9:59 am Collocations |
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| An another "Each to his/her/their own". :wink: |
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Molly
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| #18 (permalink) Fri May 16, 2008 10:06 am Collocations |
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| Molly wrote: |
| And, yes, Jamie, that one example per million words is from the sports' world. Could it be that "big detriment" is a preferred collocation in that area? |
Or it could be that they're clumsy at using English. |
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Jamie (K)
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| #19 (permalink) Fri May 16, 2008 10:08 am Collocations |
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How could we find out either way? And, could we also conclude that people who use the other "collocations" in this list are clumsy users?
13 UTTER DETRIMENT 1
14 UNFORTUNATE DETRIMENT 1
15 TREMENDOUS DETRIMENT 1
16 TRAGIC DETRIMENT 1
17 TANGIBLE DETRIMENT 1
18 SHORT-TERM DETRIMENT 1
19 OPERATIONAL DETRIMENT 1
20 REAL DETRIMENT 1
21 PROFOUND DETRIMENT 1
22 PROFESSIONAL DETRIMENT 1
23 PRIVATE DETRIMENT 1
24 POSSIBLE DETRIMENT 1
25 POSITIVE DETRIMENT 1
26 PHYSICAL DETRIMENT 1
27 PERSONAL DETRIMENT 1
28 PERCEIVED DETRIMENT 1
29 LONG-TERM DETRIMENT 1
30 HUGE DETRIMENT 1
31 GENERAL DETRIMENT 1
32 FURTHER DETRIMENT 1
33 BIG DETRIMENT 1
34 EVERLASTING DETRIMENT 1 |
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Molly
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| #20 (permalink) Fri May 16, 2008 10:26 am Collocations |
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Well, we could conclude that just one hit doesn't prove anything.
If we consider that four hits might prove something (which it can't), we could conclude that since "great detriment" is 300% more likely to occur than "big detriment", then the latter is deviant usage. However, the sample is too small and native speaker intuition has to come into play.
This is where you consult Google for the exact phrases:
"great detriment" - 83,000
"big detriment" - 4,520 (one of which is in this forum thread)
Corpus samples can lead to some very stupid conclusions. I once saw a corpus-based Oxford dictionary that marked "grape" as occurring relatively infrequently, and therefore not a high-priority word to learn. Any native speaker knows that even if we don't blabber about grapes several times a day, a person learning English needs to know what a grape is called. |
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Jamie (K)
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| #21 (permalink) Fri May 16, 2008 11:44 am Collocations |
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This is where you consult Google for the exact phrases:
"great detriment" - 83,000
"big detriment" - 4,520 (one of which is in this forum thread)
Even with that, we can't conclude that "big detriment" is a deviant form, can we? BTW, is the highlighted collocation a clumsy form, IYO:
"The decline of the Niangua darter is largely due to the alteration of its habitat. Reservoir construction along the Osage River has been a large detriment to the the darter, forming insurmountable barriers between tributary streams, limiting the range of the fish and its ability to survive."
http://epa.gov/espp/missouri/mille.htm |
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Molly
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| #22 (permalink) Fri May 16, 2008 13:46 pm Collocations |
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Based on Google results it seems that the phrase "to our great detriment" is quite popular while the collocation "to our big detriment" doesn't seem to exist.
TOEIC listening, photographs: Surveyors on site |
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Torsten
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| #23 (permalink) Fri May 16, 2008 14:03 pm Collocations |
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Note the formal use of "to our", there. We could ask if "great", used in that way, is more commonly collocated with medium-formal to formal expressions. Ask also if "big" commonly collocates/is drawn to/found in the company of med-formal to informal words.
And isn't this interesting?
2,970 English pages for "the greatest detriment".
5,470 English pages for "the biggest detriment".
Maybe there are more sporty-types on Google than we know, Jamie? :lol: |
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Molly
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| #24 (permalink) Sat May 17, 2008 3:24 am Collocations |
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Hi M
Do you find doing endless Google and corpus searches enthralling? :?
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_________________
"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power." ~ Abraham Lincoln |
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Yankee
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| #25 (permalink) Sat May 17, 2008 9:38 am Collocations |
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No, but you seem to find them threatening. Note that I have mentioned my mistrust in Google searches and would rather consult native-speaker corpora and similar sources, which I do, over Google, many more times.
Now, as one who mistrusts Google and all who search in her, what do you think about this?
2,970 English pages for "the greatest detriment".
5,470 English pages for "the biggest detriment".
55,600 English pages for "great detriment".
8,580 English pages for "biggest detriment". |
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Molly
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| #26 (permalink) Sat May 17, 2008 11:08 am Collocations |
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| Molly wrote: |
| No, but you seem to find them threatening. |
Oh, please! Don't start attributing psychopathology to people in that way. That's what a radical feminist or a domestic abuse victim does to people. Amy appears to be of perfectly sound mind. If anyone is threatened, it is you who are threatened by skepticism, and especially by being wrong, even to the point where you will accuse people of lying or hallucinating when you can no longer support your arguments.
You tend to use these corpora hamfistedly, without any consideration of their weaknesses and limitations, even the obvious ones. Your avid use of them, and your blind trust in their numbers, along with your blind trust in academics' written word, makes me think you were brought up as some kind of religious fundamentalist and to take every word of scripture as literally true. You approach linguistic corpora and academic journals in the same way. |
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Jamie (K)
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| #27 (permalink) Sat May 17, 2008 11:47 am Collocations |
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| Molly wrote: |
And isn't this interesting?
2,970 English pages for "the greatest detriment".
5,470 English pages for "the biggest detriment". |
Maybe 'the biggest detriment' is a commonly used collocation while 'a big detriment' is not.
TOEIC listening, photographs: A police officer testing for alcohol |
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Torsten
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| #28 (permalink) Sat May 17, 2008 15:07 pm Collocations |
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| Torsten wrote: |
| Maybe 'the biggest detriment' is a commonly used collocation while 'a big detriment' is not. |
Indeed, that could be so. |
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Molly
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| #29 (permalink) Sat May 17, 2008 15:14 pm Collocations |
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| Quote: |
| If anyone is threatened, it is you who are threatened by skepticism, and especially by being wrong, even to the point where you will accuse people of lying or hallucinating when you can no longer support your arguments. |
Hm, interesting, you've just turned yourself into a radical feminist or a domestic abuse victim.
| Quote: |
| You tend to use these corpora hamfistedly, without any consideration of their weaknesses and limitations, even the obvious ones. |
And there you go, yet again, with those "tendency qualifiers".
tends to
in the main
the bulk of
etc.
You love 'em, don't you?
| Quote: |
| Your avid use of them, and your blind trust in their numbers, |
Your selective reading is the problem here. I've many times said that one should consult many sources in one's search for understanding language use. So, again, your qualifiers hold no water.
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| makes me think you were brought up as some kind of religious fundamentalist and to take every word of scripture as literally true. |
Hm, should we talk about your fundamentalist approach to native speaker intuition and to native-speaker God-Almighty rightness? |
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Molly
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| Followed by something | usage of "make great time" |
