Who does the "groanings" belong to?

[ScoobieMan]

I am trying to verify who the "groanings" belong to in the following passage...

Rom 8:26-27 And in like manner the Spirit also helpeth our infirmity: for we know not how to pray as we ought; but the Spirit himself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered; and he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Is it mandatory that the "groanings" belong to the "Spirit", or can they belong to "us"... as in "us with groanings"?

This has been translated from the Greek language, so I am not sure if it will make any difference on the syntax of the sentence. Do Greek language rules apply the same as English language rules?

LIKEWISE AND ALSO THE SPIRIT JOINTLY HELPS WEAKNESS; OUR THAT FOR WHICH WE SHOULD PRAY FOR ACCORDING AS IT BEHOOVES, WE KNOW NOT, BUT ITSELF THE SPIRIT MAKES INTERCESSION FOR US GROANINGS INEXPRESSIBLE BUT HE WHO SEARCHES THE HEARTS KNOWS WHAT "IS" THE MIND OF THE SPIRIT, BECAUSE ACCORDING TO GOD HE INTERCEDES FOR SAINTS.

Thanks!

[Jamie (K)]

You're using a King James Version of the Bible, which can be obscure because of its very archaic language, and because there are parts in it that we now know to have been mistranslated.

Let's look at some other translations:

Revised Standard Version
Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with sighs too deep for words.

New International Version
In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express.

New English Version
In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness, for we do not know how we should pray, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with inexpressible groanings.

New American Version
In the same way, the Spirit too comes to the aid of our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but the Spirit itself intercedes with inexpressible groanings.

I think it's pretty clear from these that the Spirit is groaning. It's probably meant to say that interceding for us is very hard labor or great tedium.

[ScoobieMan]

Yes, I have examined a dozen or so translations, that is why I included the Greek.

It is not so much as what the translators are attempting to translate as much as it is what are the language rules that would apply to the sentence.

Is it possible that the groanings could belong to "us" as in "us with groanings"... or must the groanings belong to the Spirit. Not from a Biblical perspective, but from a grammar perspective.

I also wonder if the same language rules apply to the Greek language as they do to the English language.

Thanks!

[Jamie (K)]

It would be highly unlikely that "us with groanings" means that we are groaning.

[ScoobieMan]

I suppose that depends on how the passage is actually translated. There are some who believe that "Spirit" is "man's spirit" or the "spirit of man" instead of the "Holy Spirit". In that case if the groaning belong to the "Spirit" grammatically, then it would be man's groanings.

Just 3 verses earlier, note what is translated...

Rom 8:23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

"but we ourselves"... "groan inwardly".

This is why it is important to know if our language rules based on the structure of the sentence will require the "groanings" be owned by whatever the "Spirit" may be, whether man's spirit or the Holy Spirit.

What is likely or unlikely is really not what I am looking for... that would be mere opinion. What I am looking for is what are the language rules, if any, that would apply to the structure of this sentence?

Thanks!

[Jamie (K)]

The language rules won't help you, because you're in the realm of possible structures versus probable structures. Not every structure that is possible is likely to be used. Go back to the Greek.

In that sentence "with groanings" modifies the verb "intercede" (or "maketh intercessions" in your version). It does not modify "us". Generally, if it modified us, some kind of possessive structure word would be put before "groanings", such as "with our groanings", to make it clear that it's the pronoun that's being modified.

"He punished me with a kick in the backside."
This doesn't mean that I somehow possessed a kick in the back side in material form and then he punished me. He kicked me in the backside to punish me.

"He got up from his desk with a groan."
The desk cannot have been groaning in this sentence. It means he got up from his desk and groaned at the same time.

[ScoobieMan]

Okay... that is what I am looking for and that makes sense.

As you suggest, what if we go back to the Greek and look at the Greek word from which "us" is translated. Thayer's dictionary shows it could be defined and translated as "our".

hēmōn
Thayer Definition:
1) our, we, us

Note also that earlier in the passage this Greek word is in fact translated as "our".

So the Greek translation could very well be "intercession for our groanings".

Translators determine how to translate the Greek word hēmōn and also add the "with" in front of "groanings". As far as I can tell there is no "with" in the Greek.

ωσαυτως δε και το πνευμα συναντιλαμβανεται ταις ασθενειαις ημων το γαρ τι προσευξωμεθα καθο δει ουκ οιδαμεν αλλ αυτο το πνευμα υπερεντυγχανει υπερ ημων στεναγμοις αλαλητοις

ωσαυτως [IN LIKE MANNER] δε [AND] και [ALSO] το [THE] πνευμα [SPIRIT] συναντιλαμβανεται (5736) ταις [JOINTLY HELPS] ασθενειαις [WEAKNESS;] ημων [OUR] το 3588[THAT] γαρ [FOR] τι [WHICH] προσευξωμεθα [WE SHOULD PRAY FOR] καθο [ACCORDING AS] δει [IT BEHOOVES,] ουκ [WE] οιδαμεν [KNOW NOT,] αλλ [BUT] αυτο [ITSELF] το [THE] πνευμα [SPIRIT] υπερεντυγχανει [MAKES INTERCESSION] υπερ [FOR] ημων [US] στεναγμοις [WITH GROANINGS] αλαλητοις [INEXPRESSIBLE]

Notice how the translator adds in several words that are not actually in the Greek.