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 Tue May 06, 2008 8:13 am when or while? |
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Hi Vaok,
To balance the two sentence I would suggest;
While the grandparents love the children, they are nevertheless strict with them.
The grandparents are strict with the children while at the same time they love them .
I wouldn't use 'when' as that would not indicate the contrast but simply refer to time.
Alan
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Alan
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| Tue May 06, 2008 16:14 pm when or while? |
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so you mean 'when" doesn't have the meaning " although",but I can find it in a dictionary:
American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source - Share This when Audio Help (hwěn, wěn) Pronunciation Key
adv. At what time: When will we leave?
conj.
At the time that: in the spring, when the snow melts.
As soon as: I'll call you when I get there.
Whenever: When the wind blows, all the doors rattle.
During the time at which; while: when I was young, I was sick all the time.
Whereas; although: She stopped short when she ought to have continued.
Considering that; if: How can he get good grades when he won't study? |
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vaok
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| Tue May 06, 2008 19:37 pm when or while? |
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There is a difference between 'when they ought to love them' and 'when they love them'.
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Torsten
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| Wed May 07, 2008 0:37 am when or while? |
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| need more help. thanks. |
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vaok
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| Wed May 07, 2008 4:48 am when or while? |
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.
Webster's Dictionary describes the usage of when that you're asking about this way:
| Quote: | when
3. While; whereas; although; -- used in the manner of a conjunction to introduce a dependent adverbial sentence or clause, having a causal, conditional, or adversative relation to the principal proposition; as, he chose to turn highwayman when he might have continued an honest man; he removed the tree when it was the best in the grounds. |
Here are some additional examples (taken from various dictionaries):
- He says he hasn't got any money when in fact he's got thousands of dollars in his account. (no money vs thousands of dollars)
- I don't understand how he can say that everything's fine when it's so obvious that it's not. (fine vs not fine)
- Why are you here when you should be in school? (not in school vs should be in school)
- She stopped short when she ought to have continued. (stopped vs should not have stopped)
- Why do you walk when you have a car? (walk vs not walk)
- They think I'm really easygoing, when in fact I'm not. (easy-going vs not easy-going)
I'd say that in order to use 'when' with a meaning similar to 'although' or 'despite the fact that', you usually need to have two ideas that are clearly complete opposites. To me, the ideas of grandparents loving their grandchildren and grandparents being strict with their grandchildren are not necessarily opposite ideas. Most of the time there will be a very "black-and-white" or "yes-no" contrast or discrepancy involved with this usage of 'when'. In the examples above, I have pointed out the very clearly opposite ideas in blue.
And don't forget that the most common usage of 'when' is to talk about time (temporal).
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Yankee
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| Wed May 07, 2008 5:14 am when or while? |
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| Yankee wrote: | .
Webster's Dictionary describes the usage of when that you're asking about this way:
| Quote: | when
3. While; whereas; although; -- used in the manner of a conjunction to introduce a dependent adverbial sentence or clause, having a causal, conditional, or adversative relation to the principal proposition; as, he chose to turn highwayman when he might have continued an honest man; he removed the tree when it was the best in the grounds. |
Here are some additional examples (taken from various dictionaries):
- He says he hasn't got any money when in fact he's got thousands of dollars in his account. (no money vs thousands of dollars)
- I don't understand how he can say that everything's fine when it's so obvious that it's not. (fine vs not fine)
- Why are you here when you should be in school? (not in school vs should be in school)
- She stopped short when she ought to have continued. (stopped vs should not have stopped)
- Why do you walk when you have a car? (walk vs not walk)
- They think I'm really easygoing, when in fact I'm not. (easy-going vs not easy-going)
I'd say that in order to use 'when' with a meaning similar to 'although' or 'despite the fact that', you usually need to have two ideas that are clearly complete opposites. To me, the ideas of grandparents loving their grandchildren and grandparents being strict with their grandchildren are not necessarily opposite ideas. Most of the time there will be a very "black-and-white" or "yes-no" contrast or discrepancy involved with this usage of 'when'. In the examples above, I have pointed out the very clearly opposite ideas in blue.
And don't forget that the most common usage of 'when' is to talk about time (temporal). |
Thank you very much ! I see "while" can''t be replaced with "when" in the first sentence I give . Can "when" be replaced with "while" in your examples? |
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vaok
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| Wed May 07, 2008 7:00 am when or while? |
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Besides, should the comma in this sentence be omitted:
They think I'm really easygoing, when in fact I'm not |
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nessie
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| Wed May 07, 2008 7:13 am when or while? |
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And... please tell me the difference if we replace "in" with "with" here:
- Why are you here when you should be in school?
Many thanks |
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nessie
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| Wed May 07, 2008 14:23 pm when or while? |
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| waiting for you in the rain. millions of thanks. |
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vaok
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| Wed May 07, 2008 19:25 pm when or while? |
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Hi Vaok
I don't really like 'while' in any of the sentences. I think 'while' is more typically used as a contrasting conjunction at the beginning of a sentence.
............
Hi Nessie
I personally would not have used the comma in that one sentence, and no, you cannot replace 'in' with the word 'with'.
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Yankee
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| Thu May 08, 2008 7:05 am when or while? |
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[quote="Yankee"]Hi Vaok
I don't really like 'while' in any of the sentences. I think 'while' is more typically used as a contrasting conjunction at the beginning of a sentence.
............
I can often find sentence like this in tests here in China:
He is fat while his sister is thin.
what about the " while" in my sentence? Is it a different usuage? thanks. |
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vaok
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| Thu May 08, 2008 7:37 am when or while? |
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| vaok wrote: | I can often find sentence like this in tests here in China:
He is fat while his sister is fat. 
what about the " while" in my sentence? Is it a different usuage? thanks. |
If you meant to write 'his sister is thin', yes, you can use 'while' that way, but I don't think it would be my first choice in wording. And in that sentence, the word 'when' really wouldn't work well at all.
However, 'when' would work in a question worded this way:
How is it possible for him to be so fat when everyone else in his family is so very thin?
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Yankee
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| Thu May 08, 2008 15:20 pm when or while? |
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| Since both of the words" while" and 'when " have the meaning "although", what's the different usuage when they mean " although"? I'm still a little puzzled. Can you give me some rules? thanks. |
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vaok
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| Thu May 08, 2008 16:08 pm when or while? |
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Hi Amy,
I have the same query as Vaok about the use of "while" and "when" with the meaning of "although". Hope you can shed light on this.
Besides, about my last questions:
1/ They think I'm really easygoing, when in fact I'm not
=> why did you say you "personally would not use" the comma here, Amy? (the answer seems somehow not very... absolute  ) Actually I don't know why I still think the comma here is acceptable, especially in spoken English. I think if the speaker say such a sentence as that with a comma, their intention must be to have a pause between the two clauses (for some reason). Have you any comments about my idea?
2/ - Why are you here when you should be in school?
=> Hic, how gaga was I! (+_+) Actually I wanted to ask: what's the difference if we replace "in" with "at" here? (sorry, hic!)
Many thanks in advance
Nessie
P.S: I like your new avatar, Amy. It looks lovelier than the "keyboard cat" By the way, what do you mean by "Teachers have class", Amy, what's the implication?  |
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nessie
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