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 #17 (permalink) Thu May 08, 2008 5:52 am 2 verbs in participle? |
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It's not the word "tense" that should help you, it's the word "CONTEXT". You need to learn in which context you use which, that's the ticket. ;)
Children learn language in context, they don't ascribe names to constructions they use. If they want icecream, they don't rack their brains trying to come up with the right tense, they just say "I want an icecream" without even som mush as thinging about the present simple and the rule how to conjugate the verb "to want". |
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Lost_Soul
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| #18 (permalink) Thu May 08, 2008 5:55 am 2 verbs in participle? |
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Molly, I don't have any absolute beginners, but with all of the information about 'tenses' that is to be found in grammar books and on online ESL sites, why in the world should I worry about whether or not I call the present perfect or the present continuous a 'tense'? Heck, when even grammar experts such as Thomson & Martinet and Murphy refer to "I am going" as a 'tense', why should I argue? Let's get real.
http://www.englishclub.com/grammar/verb-tenses.htm
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Yankee
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| #19 (permalink) Thu May 08, 2008 6:00 am 2 verbs in participle? |
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| lost_soul wrote: |
It's not the word "tense" that should help you, it's the word "CONTEXT". You need to learn in which context you use which, that's the ticket. ;)
Children learn language in context, they don't ascribe names to constructions they use. If they want icecream, they don't rake their brains trying to come up with the right tense, they just say "I want an icecream" without even som mush as thinging about the present simple and the rule how to conjugate the verb "to want". |
So there's no need for the word tense in an ESL classroom at all, right? To me, the conflation of tense and aspect may be fine for those ESL students and teachers whose 1st language has an Indo-European root, but for those whose 1st language may be one of the modern Slavic languages or Greek, where tense and aspect are generally independent, teaching only the word tense may cause confusion and extra work for the student. |
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Molly
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| #20 (permalink) Thu May 08, 2008 6:01 am 2 verbs in participle? |
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I think most of the need to conflate aspect and tense in modern ESL classrooms may stem from the teacher's inability to explain aspect.
As a slight aside, how does a teacher explain the difference in choice here - apart from saying that one is BrEng and the other AmEng?
Have you eaten yet?
Did you eat yet?
And here:
I had eaten before I arrived.
A little while after we had eaten, Jake arrived.
Is it only tense that is involved in the first example? Can you explain that example away with the word "tense"? |
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Molly
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| #21 (permalink) Thu May 08, 2008 6:12 am 2 verbs in participle? |
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| Yankee wrote: |
Molly, I don't have any absolute beginners, but with all of the information about 'tenses' that is to be found in grammar books and on online ESL sites, why in the world should I worry about whether or not I call the present perfect or the present continuous a 'tense'? Heck, when even grammar experts such as Thomson & Martinet and Murphy refer to "I am going" as a 'tense', why should I argue? Let's get real.
http://www.englishclub.com/grammar/verb-tenses.htm
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Getting real: why is is that so many students come here for help about "tense" usage when there's all those wonderful grammar books available? |
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Molly
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| #22 (permalink) Thu May 08, 2008 6:21 am 2 verbs in participle? |
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To be honest, Molly, I think you're way out in left field somewhere on this one.
As I said, I generally call them 'the present perfect' or 'the simple present' or 'the past perfect continuous' if I want to refer to these forms by name. Explaining the usage is a completely different ball of wax. You don't really believe that simply saying 'aspect' rather than 'tense' will cause a learner to understand everything instantaneously, do you? :shock:
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Yankee
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| #23 (permalink) Thu May 08, 2008 6:30 am 2 verbs in participle? |
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| Quote: |
| You don't really believe that simply saying 'aspect' rather than 'tense' will cause a learner to understand everything instantaneously, do you? |
Did anyone mention the word instantaneous prior to your question?
At least you admit that teaching the word tense may be just as unhelpful as teaching the word aspect. Thanks.
| Quote: |
| To be honest, Molly, I think you're way out in left field somewhere on this one. |
I only know what has helped me, and a few hundred classmates, to a better understanding of English usage.
| Quote: |
| As I said, I generally call them 'the present perfect' or 'the simple present' or 'the past perfect continuous' if I want to refer to these forms by name. Explaining the usage is a completely different ball of wax. |
I'd say the latter action immediately follows the first, wouldn't you?
Amy: Students, this is the "present perfect". I'll explain its use in six months time. Student: Well, at least we know its name. I feel I've learned... err... something.
:lol: |
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Molly
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| #24 (permalink) Thu May 08, 2008 7:02 am 2 verbs in participle? |
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Molly, it was you who took issue with the use of the word 'tense' and suggested it should be 'aspect'. For all I know, you'd mention 'the present perfect aspect' and then wait 10 years to get into the details about how it works. :roll: But, hey, if the word 'aspect' helped you a lot, that's great.
However, if you want to refer to 'the present perfect', you cannot call it 'the present participle' and expect to be easily or readily understood. That, my dear, was the point. You missed the point completely.
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Yankee
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| #25 (permalink) Thu May 08, 2008 7:22 am 2 verbs in participle? |
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| Quote: |
| That, my dear, was the point. You missed the point completely. |
To call it "the present participle" or "the present perfect tense" seems equally an error to me. |
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Molly
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| #26 (permalink) Thu May 08, 2008 10:45 am 2 verbs in participle? |
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Molly, at times it's best to keep things simple not to confuse students. Particularly those who don't speak English fluently.
Tense is an aspect of time.
I know, the description is not bulletproof, but it helps your average John Bloggs ESL student to get the gist of the issue.
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 Ralf
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| #27 (permalink) Thu May 08, 2008 12:32 pm 2 verbs in participle? |
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| Quote: |
Tense is an aspect of time.
I know, the description is not bulletproof, but it helps your average John Bloggs ESL student to get the gist of the issue. |
What does it mean? |
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Molly
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Ralf
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| #29 (permalink) Thu May 08, 2008 21:37 pm 2 verbs in participle? |
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| Ralf wrote: |
| It's all relative, Molly. |
Relative in which way? |
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Molly
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| #30 (permalink) Fri May 09, 2008 11:26 am 2 verbs in participle? |
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The Einstein way. Everything is relative, because the universe works in misterious ways. Depending on the perspective, you could argue that things are 3-dimensional, 3.5-dimensional, 4-dimensional, multi-dimensional or lacking any dimension at all.
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| million dollars' worth | Present perfect: past or present? |
