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Sun May 11, 2008 8:31 am due to, because of, thanks to? |
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Hi Molly,
I accept your criticism but it was a riposte to this obsession with rushing to Dolly Google and her like as if they were the final arbiter on matters of language whereas in fact they simply record. By widening the scope to reading and listening the learner can see by the context the use of the word(s) on a greater scale and hear it/them from the lips of different speakers.
Alan _________________ English as a Second Language You can read my ESL story Reflections |
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Alan Co-founder

Joined: 27 Sep 2003 Posts: 7384 Location: UK
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Sun May 11, 2008 8:55 am due to, because of, thanks to? |
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I suppose you'd then say the same of this obsession with rushing to Daddy Grammar Book, Mummy English Test sites and Brother/Sister Native-speaker as they were the final arbiters on matters of language, right? 
So please tell us what value and use you think corpora (or do you prefer the word "corpuses"?) can have in the world of ESL. |
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Molly I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008 Posts: 3822
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Sun May 11, 2008 15:57 pm due to, because of, thanks to? |
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| Molly wrote: | | Google and the BNC are entirely different tools. | Did I say they were the same? No. Are you suggesting that one of those tools does not require any thought or practice in order to maximize its effectiveness as a tool? . _________________ Amy
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ESL teacher, translator, and a native speaker of American English |
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Yankee I'm a Communicator ;-)

Joined: 16 Apr 2006 Posts: 7858 Location: USA
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Sun May 11, 2008 16:31 pm due to, because of, thanks to? |
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| Quote: | | Are you suggesting that one of those tools does not require any thought or practice in order to maximize its effectiveness as a tool? |
I'm saying that they are different. The BNC and CAE are much more complex tools that Google, for example. |
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Molly I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008 Posts: 3822
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Sun May 11, 2008 19:42 pm due to, because of, thanks to? |
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Hi everybody,
I'd like to say that as a non-native learner, I highly appreciate all your advice After studying English for a certain time, I've realized that nothing is absolute,and so are languages. 
To Amy: Hi Amy, Here in my country, there are just multiple choice tests for students (there used to be test of other kinds, but they have all been abrogated now), and so our teachers here often teach us some "tips" for those MCQ.(Those MCQ given by non-native test-makers may sometimes be quite odd, like many test questions I've posted here and then get this question from many teachers: "Where did you get this question?" ) But if that "tip" to distinguish between "due to" and "because of" is not always right, then which is the correct answers? It seems that both phrases are ok...
To Molly: Hi Molly, Could you please tell me what "CAE" mean? Is it another corpus? |
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nessie I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 16 Feb 2008 Posts: 1031
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Sun May 11, 2008 19:54 pm due to, because of, thanks to? |
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Dear language learners,
Listen to uncle Jamie, auntie Amy and grandpa Alan. That'll help you more than any numb, dumb and deaf corpus. If you should however feel like learning a computer language, learn the rules by heart. _________________ Test of English as a Foreign Language TOEFL Preparation & TOEFL Vocabulary Learn more: How to Become an English Teacher |
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Ralf Language Coach

Joined: 20 Apr 2006 Posts: 1436 Location: EU (Ireland and Germany)
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Sun May 11, 2008 20:10 pm due to, because of, thanks to? |
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| Ralf wrote: | Dear language learners,
Listen to uncle Jamie, auntie Amy and grandpa Alan. That'll help you more than any numb, dumb and deaf corpus. If you should however feel like learning a computer language, learn the rules by heart. |
What a narrowminded, uninformed post.
You can talk to the compilers of the "numb, dumb and deaf corpus", the BYU BNC, here, if you have the cojones.
mark_davies@byu.edu I'm sure Mark will be interested in your views.
BTW, Listen to uncle Jamie, auntie Amy and grandpa Alan. |
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Molly I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008 Posts: 3822
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Sun May 11, 2008 20:12 pm due to, because of, thanks to? |
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Hi Molly, Could you please tell me what "CAE" mean? Is it another corpus?
Yes, it is.
Here's the link:
http://www.americancorpus.org/
"In February 2008 I placed online a 360+ million word corpus of American English. This is the only large-scale corpus of American English, and it is in fact the largest (and hopefully most useful) structured corpus of any language freely available on the web. The corpus contains twenty million words in each year from 1990 to the present, with four million words each year in the five genres of spoken, fiction, popular magazines, newspapers, and academic. Best of all, the corpus will be continually updated -- 20 million words each year -- from this point on."
It's made up from the utterances of people just like "Uncle Jamie, Auntie Amy and Grandpa Alan".  |
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Molly I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008 Posts: 3822
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Sun May 11, 2008 20:40 pm due to, because of, thanks to? |
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I myself think English learners should learn from many sources, and of course, they should know how to select which is correct and which is not. Read more and listen more and we'll see more how tiny we are (I'm refering to us learners, of course )
By the way, I find "Uncle Jamie, Auntie Amy and Grandpa Alan" so sweet and intimate Do you mind if I address you that way?  (And how about Auntie Molly, Uncle Torsten, Uncle P, etc.?) 
P.S: To those who think I'm toady: I'm simply not, this way of addressing people you love is quite (or extremely) common in my culture. I just wonder if it is ok in Western culture...  |
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nessie I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 16 Feb 2008 Posts: 1031
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Sun May 11, 2008 20:42 pm due to, because of, thanks to? |
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| Quote: | | I myself think English learners should learn from many sources, and of course, they should know how to select which is correct and which is not. Read more and listen more and we'll see more how tiny we are (I'm refering to us learners, of course ) |
I agree wholeheartedly, but I'd include some adult native-speakers under the term "learner". One can always learn something about one's language, right?
Kisses.
Auntie Molly. |
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Molly I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008 Posts: 3822
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Mon May 12, 2008 8:30 am due to, because of, thanks to? |
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| Molly wrote: | | Ralf wrote: | Dear language learners,
Listen to uncle Jamie, auntie Amy and grandpa Alan. That'll help you more than any numb, dumb and deaf corpus. If you should however feel like learning a computer language, learn the rules by heart. |
What a narrowminded, uninformed post.
You can talk to the compilers of the "numb, dumb and deaf corpus", the BYU BNC, here, if you have the cojones.
mark_davies@byu.edu I'm sure Mark will be interested in your views.
BTW, Listen to uncle Jamie, auntie Amy and grandpa Alan. |
Your post once again proves what riddled mind you possess. Blabber on, Jiminy Grille.
Listen to your native speakers and take their advice on board. False interpretation of statistical records as well as your desperate wild-goose search for mistakes in others won't get you anywhere. _________________ Test of English as a Foreign Language TOEFL Preparation & TOEFL Vocabulary Learn more: How to Become an English Teacher |
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Ralf Language Coach

Joined: 20 Apr 2006 Posts: 1436 Location: EU (Ireland and Germany)
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Mon May 12, 2008 8:47 am due to, because of, thanks to? |
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| It's got me to where I am, which, compared with your use of English, seems a good place. |
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Molly I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008 Posts: 3822
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Mon May 12, 2008 8:58 am due to, because of, thanks to? |
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| Molly wrote: | | Quote: | | Listen to your native speakers and take their advice on board. False interpretation of statistical records as well as your desperate wild-goose search for mistakes in others won't get you anywhere. |
It's got me to where I am, which, compared with your use of English, seems a good place. |
Hi, Molly, are you casting doubts on Ralf's command of English? He's a native speaker, by the way  _________________ Alex
How much upchuck would a woodchuck upchuck if a woodchuck could upchuck ?
(a guy from Russia) |
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lost_soul I'm a Communicator ;-)

Joined: 15 Sep 2006 Posts: 1812 Location: South Park, Colorado, USA
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Mon May 12, 2008 13:44 pm due to, because of, thanks to? |
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Everybody makes mistakes, and I make mistakes because I'm sloppy.
Molly points to "too much native speaker intuition", because she keeps making mistakes she can't avoid. If you criticise her, she bends some corpus or other her way to support her point. If you or Alan or Torsten or anybody makes a mistake, she lifts her disparaging fingers to distract from her own shortcomings.
I would argue that this attitude is both a sign of weakness and ignorance. But it keeps her busy using the English language, and on the long run she'll improve her writing skills. _________________ Test of English as a Foreign Language TOEFL Preparation & TOEFL Vocabulary Learn more: How to Become an English Teacher |
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Ralf Language Coach

Joined: 20 Apr 2006 Posts: 1436 Location: EU (Ireland and Germany)
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