dual school system vs. dual education system

[Yankee]

[Yankee]

[Molly]

Thanks. :P

[Molly]

[Yankee]

Start phoning Southerners at random? If even one out of a hundred randomly called Southerners responded that they'd heard the expression, then presumably you'd feel justified in jumping down Prezbucky's throat, too. :roll:

Just make sure that John Grisham isn't on the call list. After all, we already know that he uses the expression.
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_________________
"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power." ~ Abraham Lincoln

[Jamie (K)]

You guys, "dual school system" is does NOT conjure in an American's mind the image of a racially segregated school system. It is far more likely to be understood as a two-track education system or a system that contains both public and private (usually parochial) schools. It will even be understood this way by lawyers from the South, if no other context is given. Amy is NOT ignorant! She's giving you a correct assessment.

The two of you are laboring under a foreign English speaker's misimpression that just because the term has a certain meaning in some specific contexts, that it must mean the same thing in ALL contexts, and even out of context. This is not true. Notice that in all of Molly's examples, the term "dual school system" is preceded by a term marking the subject of the text as racial discrimination in the old South. If you look at the articles as a whole, you'll find that they not only have race discrimination as their main subject, but the articles are from 1969 and 1971, so it's clear from context that in those articles "dual school system" refers specifically to the racially segregated school systems of the Jim Crow south. Outside of that context, the term does not mean that.

Torsten, here's an analogy to what's going on here:

I can see a lot of German books with the word "Einsteiger" in the title. Gartenpläne für Einsteiger, Biotechnologie für Einsteiger, Ölmalerei für Einsteiger, and especially software manuals, C++ für Einsteiger, Visual Basic 2005 für Einsteiger, etc. If I look over these books, or just the descriptions of them, I can see that the word "Einsteiger" means a beginner, or someone who has no experience with whatever the subject of the book is.

Suppose then that I get on a train in Germany and I hear the conductor talk about Einsteiger. A German will tell me that he means boarding passengers, but I will confidently argue that he's talking about people who have never ridden a train before in their entire lives. The German will insist I'm wrong, but I'll point out all of those book titles as "proof" that "Einsteiger" means people with no experience of whatever they're doing. Then I'll tell the native German he's ignorant about his own language.

So much for the bogus theory that an "expert user" of English has just as valid a feel for it as a native speaker.

[Torsten]

Hi Jamie,

I'm well aware of the fact that an expression can have different meanings depending on the context it is used in. At least this is the case with English as well as German or Russian. I also understand that in the example sentence I posted 'dual school system' is supposed to mean 'segregated school system'. The term was used in a book published in 2004 by an American bestselling author. The story happens in the 1970ies in Mississippi. Since the book is written by an American for American readers (not just lawyers from the South), I assume that a certain percentage of Americans understand that in the given context the term 'dual school system' means or used to mean 'segregated school system'. I also assume that this term might have been quite popular in the 70ies. Of course my assumption might be wrong but this would mean, that a bestselling author, his proofreaders, editors, American actors and publishers use expressions that are or were strange or rarely used. Maybe Grisham made the term up and nobody cares?

I just wonder how many strange, rare or confusing terms and expressions popular American authors use in their books. Also, what do American readers do when they come across such expressions? Do they simply shrug their shoulders and think "oh, just another expression I've never heard of but why should I bother"?

If I follow the logic of your "Einsteiger example" -- the term "dual school system" can mean at least two rather different things, depending on the context. That's exactly what I started to think when I read Grisham's sentence. If you ask a German what the meanings of "Einsteiger" are, they will give you the exact two definitions you used. However, what you are saying is that if you ask an American what the term "dual school system" means, they will tell you that it doesn't sound very American since you use the terms "segregated school systems" and "two-track/dual track school system". If I understand you correctly, the term "dual school system" is only used by mislead Germans or John Grisham.

I'm not trying to argue that the term "dual school system" is a popular expression. I do think that it is rather ambiguous and misleading and it doesn't seem to be used by many Americans. What I find interesting though is the following: The book I'm referring to has been bought and read by millions of Americans and foreigners alike. In the story, the author uses a strange/rare term to describe racial segregation in schools.

My question is why didn't anyone point out to Grisham that racial segregation is usually not called "dual school system"? Of course you might say "that's because any American knows that the correct term is 'segregated school system' and no American would ever start using the term. It's just the mislead foreigners who might be tricked into believing that "dual school system" used to be a commonly used term those parts of the US where racial segregation in schools was existed.

TOEIC listening, photographs: Running into the water

[Jamie (K)]

Torsten, you're right that in the given context the term "dual school system" is taken by Americans to mean the racially segregated school systems of the Jim Crow south. It is NOT confusing to Americans, in the given context. Therefore, there was no reason for editors and proofreaders to advise Grisham not to use it.

Outside the given context, the expression is not confusing to Americans either. It simply means a school system made up of two parallel components. Most Americans will not think of racial segregation unless you provide that context, because the days of racially segregated school systems are long over, and in the North they never even existed. If you told Americans that Germany or France has a "dual school system", they would never assume it was a racially segregated school system, and they would understand it as being a two-track (academic and vocational) school system or a system containing both public and private schools. It would be perfectly clear.

The term would be confusing to a foreigner mainly if he overgeneralizes from the context. It's not much different from the confusion Europeans have in English with the words for "education" and "upbringing". They'll overgeneralize and talk about the "education of children", when they really mean the rearing or upbringing of children. I had a similar problem with overgeneralizing one of the German words for "treat" to all contexts in which English speakers would say "treat".

[Molly]

[Torsten]

[Yankee]

Hi Torsten

[Torsten]

I agree with you, Amy. Context is king!

TOEIC listening, photographs: Playing paint ball

[Yankee]