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 Fri May 16, 2008 14:44 pm One vs so (I am a member and will remain so/one unless I am fired) |
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| In what way/How so? |
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Molly
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| Sat May 17, 2008 0:35 am One vs so (I am a member and will remain so/one unless I am fired) |
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1. He is a teacher and will remain that unless ...
— "that" here = pronoun; thus could carry the meaning of "teacher"; but unidiomatic.
2. He is a teacher and will remain that way unless ...
— a "teacher" is not a "way". Thus "that way" is an empty variable.
3. He is a bad teacher and will remain that unless ...
— as #1.
4. He is a bad teacher and will remain that way unless ...
— awkward; but "that way" could carry the meaning of "bad". (That it carries "bad", not "teacher", can be inferred from the likely continuations, in which "he" remains a teacher, but is no longer "bad"; e.g. "unless we send him on one of Molly's training courses".)
5. He is a teacher, and so is his sister.
— "so" here = adverbial ("equally").
6. Discussion on pro-forms needed?
— "pro-forms" here = "cop-out".
MrP |
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MrPedantic
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| Sat May 17, 2008 4:57 am One vs so (I am a member and will remain so/one unless I am fired) |
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| MrPedantic wrote: | 4. He is a bad teacher and will remain that way unless ...
— awkward; but "that way" could carry the meaning of "bad". (That it carries "bad", not "teacher", can be inferred from the likely continuations, in which "he" remains a teacher, but is no longer "bad"; e.g. "unless we send him on one of Molly's training courses".)
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'He' might then go from being a 'bad teacher' to someone who disgorges Google numbers and argues with himself -- just like Molly would.
Maybe Google ought to be renamed. Something such as Mollywood perhaps.
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ESL teacher, translator, and a native speaker of American English |
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Yankee
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lost_soul
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| Sat May 17, 2008 7:42 am One vs so (I am a member and will remain so/one unless I am fired) |
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And what about this:
They are my friends and they'll remain so  |
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nessie
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| Sat May 17, 2008 9:52 am One vs so (I am a member and will remain so/one unless I am fired) |
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| Quote: | 6. Discussion on pro-forms needed?
— "pro-forms" here = "cop-out". |
Your answer = prescription. So, again you want us to only accept your reading of things, right?
So we're back to the start, right? Let me just get things clear: are you saying that examples such as "He is a bastard, and will remain so for the rest of fora eternity", She is a whiner, and will remain so for the rest of fora eternity" and He is a mysogynist, and will remain so for the rest of fora eternity" are unidiomatic, ungrammatical, or something?
To me, with "He is a bastard, and will remain so for the rest of fora eternity", the reader/hearer can probably infer the speaker's attitude to the one spoken about. With "He's teacher, and will remain so for the rest of eternity", we may have to guess at the speaker's attitude to the profession, teacher, but in context, it may be easier to divine that attitude. The speak of course would probably know his own attitude to such. With all that in mind, I do not see "so", in the latter example, as always being empty variable, but I may be wrong.
But, then, we may be straying away from Mr P's cherished world of syntax here and into those of semantics and pragmatics. I dunno. |
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Molly
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| Sat May 17, 2008 9:59 am One vs so (I am a member and will remain so/one unless I am fired) |
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| Quote: | | That last post brings apples and oranges to mind. |
In what way/How so?
| Quote: | | Maybe Google ought to be renamed. Something such as Mollywood perhaps. |
LOL!
Now running in theaters near you: The Amytiville Horror, Jamien the Omen, and Goodbye Mr Pips.. |
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Molly
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| Sat May 17, 2008 12:49 pm One vs so (I am a member and will remain so/one unless I am fired) |
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| nessie wrote: | And what about this:
They are my friends and they'll remain so |
Hello Nessie,
For me, when "so" refers to a noun with an accompanying descriptive or qualitative element (as opposed to a classifying element), the slight discomfort decreases. Thus here the "so" seems to answer to "my".
All the best,
MrP |
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MrPedantic
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| Sat May 17, 2008 13:07 pm One vs so (I am a member and will remain so/one unless I am fired) |
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| Quote: | With "He's teacher, and will remain so for the rest of eternity", we may have to guess at the speaker's attitude to the profession, teacher, but in context, it may be easier to divine that attitude.
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I'm not sure you've understood what I mean by "empty variable". Cf.
1. He is a teacher and will remain so.
2. He is a good teacher and will remain so.
For me, it isn't that we have to infer the speaker's attitude, in #1; rather, it's that "so" looks for a quality, and finds only a classification. This is not the case in #2, where "so" finds "good".
As for "pro-form", I call it a "cop-out" because it avoids the question of whether e.g. "so" in the original example is a pronoun or an adverb.
As for "prescription", the object here is presumably to investigate the differing responses of three native speakers to a particular structure. I'm not sure where the crude "prescriptive/descriptive" dichotomy comes in.
MrP |
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MrPedantic
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| Sat May 17, 2008 16:00 pm One vs so (I am a member and will remain so/one unless I am fired) |
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| Quote: | | For me, when "so" refers to a noun with an accompanying descriptive or qualitative element (as opposed to a classifying element), the slight discomfort decreases. |
It seems this discomfort you suffer is brought on by your idiolect. It doesn't seem anything to do with the standard dialect/sociolect. Am I right? |
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Molly
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| Sat May 17, 2008 16:06 pm One vs so (I am a member and will remain so/one unless I am fired) |
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| Quote: | | As for "pro-form", I call it a "cop-out" because it avoids the question of whether e.g. "so" in the original example is a pronoun or an adverb. |
Is "closed" an adjective here, or is it a past participle?
"The road was closed." |
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Molly
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| Sat May 17, 2008 16:28 pm One vs so (I am a member and will remain so/one unless I am fired) |
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| Quote: | 2. He is a teacher and will remain that way unless ...
— a "teacher" is not a "way". Thus "that way" is an empty variable. |
"Barbara Stengel (1996) has suggested the latter: that being a teacher is a way of being"
linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0742051X97000218 |
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Molly
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| Sat May 17, 2008 22:49 pm One vs so (I am a member and will remain so/one unless I am fired) |
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| Molly wrote: | It seems this discomfort you suffer is brought on by your idiolect. It doesn't seem anything to do with the standard dialect/sociolect.
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I don't know about that. If you search for other discussions of "remain so", you'll find that others share that slight discomfort.
| Molly wrote: | Is "closed" an adjective here, or is it a past participle?
"The road was closed."
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1. The road was closed [by an official in a green uniform].
2. The road was closed [so I took a different route].
In #1, "closed" is a tense-forming past participle; in #2, an adjectival past participle.
| Molly wrote: | "Barbara Stengel (1996) has suggested the latter: that being a teacher is a way of being"
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Barbara Stengel may well have said that "being a teacher" was "a way of being". (How could it be otherwise?)
But that isn't the phrase in question.
MrP |
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MrPedantic
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| Sun May 18, 2008 0:10 am One vs so (I am a member and will remain so/one unless I am fired) |
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| Quote: | | I don't know about that. If you search for other discussions of "remain so", you'll find that others share that slight discomfort. |
And would they conclude that their discomfort is brought on by something non-standard?
| Quote: | | In #1, "closed" is a tense-forming past participle; in #2, an adjectival past participle. |
Great names. Do you use them all the time?
| Quote: | Barbara Stengel may well have said that "being a teacher" was "a way of being". (How could it be otherwise?)
But that isn't the phrase in question.
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Really? Did you speak to the witer?
Do these get you reaching for the Pepto Bismol?
He thought the moon was made of cheese, and did/thought so until July 20th 1969.
We believed that we didn't have a variety of antibiotics to combat such diseases, and did/believed so until the 1980s.
He became the 35th president of the United States in 1961, and was so until his assassination.
In 1900, the Kingdom became a British protectorate and was so until 1970 when it became the independent Kingdom of Tonga
Von Choltitz became a prisoner of war and remained so until 1946.
Mr R. H. Wyndham then became lessee, and continued so until the house was burned down on 23rd May, 1853, when he got the Theatre Royal. |
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Molly
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| usage of "make great time" | correct relative pronoun |
