|
|
 Sun May 18, 2008 16:45 pm " 's " |
|
|
Mr. Pike is a teacher of Jack's or else Mr. Pike is Jack's teacher.
I think in the second sentence you would use "She's a friend of my sister" simply because sister's in that place could get confused for sisters and would mean the whole family instead of just one and thus might prove confusing. Again, "She's my sister's friend." is best. |
|
rajin
New Member
Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 7
|
|
| Sun May 18, 2008 19:38 pm " 's " |
|
|
Mr. Pike is a teacher of Jack's.
Why not Mr. Pike is a teacher of Jack.
Is the first sentence idiomatic? |
|
manal
I'm new here and I like it ;-)
Joined: 21 Mar 2008
Posts: 15
Location: Palestine
|
 |
| Mon May 19, 2008 0:01 am " 's " |
|
|
Hello Nessie,
1. Mr Pike is a teacher of Jack
— this isn't quite the same as #2 in meaning; it would be a quite unusual way of saying "Mr Pike is Jack's teacher".
2. Mr Pike is a teacher of Jack's
— this means "Mr Pike is one of Jack's teachers".
3. She's a friend of my sister
4. She's a friend of my sister's
— both are fine; the "double genitive" in #4 may seem puzzling, but is perfectly idiomatic.
For me, #3 suggests the viewpoint "friend → sister", while #4 suggests the viewpoint "sister → one friend among several"; but I suspect this would not be shared by all other members.
Best wishes,
MrP |
|
MrPedantic
I'm here quite often ;-)
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 828
Location: Southern England
|
|
| Mon May 19, 2008 7:59 am Usage of 's: Mr Pike is a teacher of Jack/Jack's. |
|
|
| Quote: | | 1. Mr Pike is a teacher of Jack |
This can also mean "Mr Pike is one of Jack's teachers". |
|
Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 2753
|
|
| Mon May 19, 2008 13:40 pm Usage of 's: Mr Pike is a teacher of Jack/Jack's. |
|
|
| Molly wrote: | | Quote: | | 1. Mr Pike is a teacher of Jack |
This can also mean "Mr Pike is one of Jack's teachers". |
Is that the version you would advise your students to use, Molly?
To me, that particular version sounds rather like you're attempting to say that "Jack" is the subject matter taught by Mr. Pike:
"Mr. Pike is a teacher of Shakespeare."
_________________
Amy
.
ESL teacher, translator, and a native speaker of American English |
|
Yankee
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 16 Apr 2006
Posts: 7250
Location: New England
|
|
| Mon May 19, 2008 18:01 pm Usage of 's: Mr Pike is a teacher of Jack/Jack's. |
|
|
| Quote: | | Is that the version you would advise your students to use, Molly? |
Note the "can also mean", Amy.
<<This can also mean "Mr Pike is one of Jack's teachers".>> |
|
Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 2753
|
|
| Mon May 19, 2008 19:00 pm Usage of 's: Mr Pike is a teacher of Jack/Jack's. |
|
|
Thanks you all for your ideas 
Actually from what I am taught here, the "double genitive" is COMPULSORY in these cases, which means that in formal English we can only say these:
He's a friend of mine
She's a friend of my sister's
Mr Pike is a teacher of Jack's
Therefore I just want to see about ideas of native teachers whether this rule is absolute.
Many thanks in advance
Nessie
P.S:
Hi MrP,
In your last post, did you mean that #1 is also ACCEPTABLE in British English? And in this case it is not completely the same as #2 because #2 refers to the possibility that Mr Pike is ONE OF Jack's teachers while # doesn't?
Many thanks. |
|
nessie
I'm here quite often ;-)
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 907
|
|
| Mon May 19, 2008 20:40 pm Usage of 's: Mr Pike is a teacher of Jack/Jack's. |
|
|
A: Who is actually the teacher of Susan & Jack? Remind me.
B: I've told you many times, Mr Pike is a teacher of Jack and Ms Molly is a teacher of Susan.
.............
So, according to Amy's reading, "He is the teacher of George" means "He's teaches the subject called George". |
|
Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 2753
|
|
| Mon May 19, 2008 21:04 pm Usage of 's: Mr Pike is a teacher of Jack/Jack's. |
|
|
.
Do you purposely try to mislead ESL students, "Molly"?
.
_________________
Amy
.
ESL teacher, translator, and a native speaker of American English |
|
Yankee
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 16 Apr 2006
Posts: 7250
Location: New England
|
|
| Mon May 19, 2008 23:07 pm Usage of 's: Mr Pike is a teacher of Jack/Jack's. |
|
|
| Yankee wrote: | .
Do you purposely try to mislead ESL students, "Molly"?
. |
Just show me where I've misled them and then we'll talk. It might be misleading to state that "Jack" sounds like a subject that can be taught. It might be misleading to omit talking about how context/cotext helps disambiguate certain sentences, etc.
Do these mislead?
Duncan is a friend of a mentor of Mary.
Teddy is the father of a teacher of Susan.
Mr Pike, not Mr Spike, is a teacher of Jack Benny.
Johann Mattheson was a teacher of George Frideric Handel.
-------------------
Would one be misled into thinking that George Frideric Handel was a school subject being taught by Johann Mattheson? |
|
Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 2753
|
|
| Mon May 19, 2008 23:49 pm Usage of 's: Mr Pike is a teacher of Jack/Jack's. |
|
|
| Quote: | Actually from what I am taught here, the "double genitive" is COMPULSORY in these cases, which means that in formal English we can only say these:
He's a friend of mine
She's a friend of my sister's
Mr Pike is a teacher of Jack's |
Does this sound like formal English?
"For example, William of Champeaux, a teacher of Peter Abelard and one of the early participants in the centuries-long debate about the problem of universals ..."
From: JSTOR: Science and Rhetoric in the Middle Ages: The Natural ...
--------
"In Williamsburg he took up general studies for six months or so and then signed on to read law under George Wythe, who had been a teacher of Thomas Jefferson."
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~mysouthernfamily/myff/d0043/g0000031.html
"that he was a teacher of Alexander is, however, chronologically impossible"
From: Who's who in the Age of Alexander the Great: Prosopography of Alexander's Empire By Waldemar Heckel |
|
Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 2753
|
|
| Mon May 19, 2008 23:53 pm Usage of 's: Mr Pike is a teacher of Jack/Jack's. |
|
|
| Molly wrote: | A: Who is actually the teacher of Susan & Jack? Remind me.
B: I've told you many times, Mr Pike is a teacher of Jack and Ms Molly is a teacher of Susan.
|
This sounds ludicrously stilted and improbable. You might find it in a schoolboy's translation from the Spanish, perhaps.
Change to:
B: Mr Pike is Jack's teacher, and Ms Molly is Susan's.
MrP |
|
MrPedantic
I'm here quite often ;-)
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 828
Location: Southern England
|
|
| Mon May 19, 2008 23:58 pm Usage of 's: Mr Pike is a teacher of Jack/Jack's. |
|
|
| Quote: | | This sounds ludicrously stilted and improbable. |
Is it grammatical?
| Quote: | Change to:
B: Mr Pike is Jack's teacher, and Ms Molly is Susan's. |
In which register/s?
Talking about the ludicrous, does this fit that label, Mr P?
| Quote: | | that particular version ("Mr Pike is a teacher of Jack") sounds rather like you're attempting to say that "Jack" is the subject matter taught by Mr. Pike |
My parentheses. |
|
Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 2753
|
|
| Tue May 20, 2008 0:07 am Usage of 's: Mr Pike is a teacher of Jack/Jack's. |
|
|
What would you choose here and why?
Excuse me, I'd like to talk to a teacher of Jack.
Excuse me, I'd like to talk to a teacher of Jack's. |
|
Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 2753
|
|
|
| Please check my essay | Describe a famous figure that you admire most |
... something we never have again, I know... I guess I really really know..