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 Wed Jun 04, 2008 1:08 am Collocating the adjective "complicate". |
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| Molly wrote: | | Quote: | | Is it such a terrible thing, to be taken for a native speaker? |
You seem to love being one, so...
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Nonetheless, your response is rather strange. ESL forums are full of threads where ESL students ask how they can learn to sound like a native speaker. Yet when I say I take you for a native speaker, you indignantly deny it and demand "proof".
It's not as if you make strenuous efforts to sound unlike a native speaker. You pass the "duck" test with flying colours.
So isn't it rather odd, to demand "proof"? Where have you ever seen ESL students on other fora demand such, after a similar comment?
MrP |
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MrPedantic
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| Wed Jun 04, 2008 1:22 am Collocating the adjective "complicate". |
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| Quote: | | Yet when I say I take you for a native speaker, you indignantly deny it and demand "proof". |
LOL! He's hilarious. I suppose ESL fora are also full of women wanting to be men. The next time he uses male pronouns and "old chap" to address me, I'd better not ask for proof, right? Will I pass the gender duck test?
| Quote: | | So isn't it rather odd, to demand "proof"? Where have you ever seen ESL students on other fora demand such, after a similar comment? |
LOL, twice! Is Mr P backpedaling now?
Next time he says "you're no more of a non-native speaker than I am", I'll take it as a complement.  |
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Molly
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| Wed Jun 04, 2008 1:49 am Collocating the adjective "complicate". |
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| Molly wrote: | ...a complement...
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Quite.
To recapitulate:
If you're a non-native speaker, you should feel pleased.
If you're a native speaker, you should feel indignant.
MrP |
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MrPedantic
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| Wed Jun 04, 2008 9:49 am Collocating the adjective "complicate". |
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Next, he has to explain why he uses "he" and "him" pronouns to talk about me. Can't wait.
And would any non-native speaker feel pleased at being labeled "native-speaker" if the definition of that term was the one used by Mr P and his flock here? |
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Molly
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| Wed Jun 04, 2008 10:08 am Collocating the adjective "complicate". |
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Hi guys
In order to get the thread back to the point, after all this is supposed to be an English Vocabulary, Grammar and Idioms forum not a mud slinging, slagging off match, isnīt it?
complicate + argument
complicate + relationship
complicate + handbook/manual
complicate + website navigation
complicate + mobile/cell functions
complicate + political policy
Just to maybe keep things on track, how many of the suggestions could you use with "intricate"?
cheers stew.t. |
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stew.t.
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| Wed Jun 04, 2008 10:08 am Collocating the adjective "complicate". |
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Reticence and Mr P-astor:
A forumite wrote: <How do you know that [they're typos]?>
Mr P wrote: Ask a hundred native speakers and report back on the results.
http://www.antimoon.com/forum/t10638-30.htm |
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Molly
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| Wed Jun 04, 2008 10:10 am Collocating the adjective "complicate". |
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| stew.t. wrote: | Just to maybe keep things on track, how many of the suggestions could you use with "intricate"?
cheers stew.t. |
Thanks, Stew. Where did you find those collocations and how can we be sure that "complicate" is an adjective in all of them? |
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Molly
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| Wed Jun 04, 2008 21:47 pm Collocating the adjective "complicate". |
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| stew.t. wrote: | In order to get the thread back to the point, after all this is supposed to be an English Vocabulary, Grammar and Idioms forum not a mud slinging, slagging off match, isnīt it?
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True enough; but since the first page of this thread relates mostly to the limited competence of native speakers, it isn't unreasonable to point out that M. himself belongs to that happy band.
| Molly wrote: | A forumite wrote: <How do you know that [they're typos]?>
Mr P wrote: Ask a hundred native speakers and report back on the results.
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It would be better of course to ask the authors of a hundred examples whether they would like to correct "complicate" to "complicated"; though the results would be the same (100% "yes").
The point you miss is that writers are also readers. They know from their own reading experience that if they want other readers to understand potentially ambiguous terms, they have to mark them in some way either with an explanation, or a "sic", or inverted commas.
Find a non-biological "complicate" marked thus, and you may have found a valid example.
MrP |
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MrPedantic
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| Thu Jun 05, 2008 0:37 am Collocating the adjective "complicate". |
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| Quote: | | True enough; but since the first page of this thread relates mostly to the limited competence of native speakers, |
Hey, folks, is the subject "limited competence of native speakers" a taboo subject? Seems Mr P is saying that it's a no-go area.
| Quote: | | They know from their own reading experience that if they want other readers to understand potentially ambiguous terms, they have to mark them in some way either with an explanation, or a "sic", or inverted commas. |
So now we're in the area of "how to guide your readers". Seems Mr P isn't so sure it was a typo after all. Seems he's saying "we'll if it wasn't a bloody typo, the writer should have let me know about it". Hm, strange turnaround from the Pastor, there. |
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Molly
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| Thu Jun 05, 2008 0:40 am Collocating the adjective "complicate". |
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Hey, Mr P, are all these typos?
complicate + argument
complicate + relationship
complicate + handbook/manual
complicate + website navigation
complicate + mobile/cell functions
complicate + political policy |
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Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 3822
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| Thu Jun 05, 2008 1:43 am Collocating the adjective "complicate". |
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| Molly wrote: | | Quote: | | True enough; but since the first page of this thread relates mostly to the limited competence of native speakers, |
Hey, folks, is the subject "limited competence of native speakers" a taboo subject? Seems Mr P is saying that it's a no-go area.
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On the contrary. See the second part of the sentence: "it isn't unreasonable to point out that M. himself belongs to that happy band."
| Molly wrote: | | So now we're in the area of "how to guide your readers". Seems Mr P isn't so sure it was a typo after all. Seems he's saying "we'll if it wasn't a bloody typo, the writer should have let me know about it". Hm, strange turnaround from the Pastor, there. |
On the contrary. Not "should have": "would have".
A writer who decided to revive "complicate" would be aware that the ordinary reader would assume it was a typo. So he would naturally mark it in some way; probably with inverted commas.
MrP |
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MrPedantic
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Posts: 1213
Location: Southern England
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| Thu Jun 05, 2008 9:24 am Collocating the adjective "complicate". |
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| Quote: | | "it isn't unreasonable to point out that M. himself belongs to that happy band." |
We've had your rather spurious explanation of why you "suggested" that I wasn't a non-native speaker. Now, are we going to get your explanation of why you think I'm a man?
And can we expect the "I think you're white" comments soon?
| Quote: | | On the contrary. Not "should have": "would have". |
Well, we're back to the unmodalised assertions. Mr P becomes Mr C. Categorical statements will flow. |
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Molly
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| Thu Jun 05, 2008 10:41 am Collocating the adjective "complicate". |
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I would have though that
All writers should/have to, "if they want other readers to understand potentially ambiguous terms," "mark them in some way either with an explanation, or a "sic", or inverted commas."
I would say that good writers do that and poor writers don't. Is Mr P saying that the writer of the text which was "full of typos" is a good writer? |
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Molly
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| Thu Jun 05, 2008 14:03 pm Collocating the adjective "complicate". |
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Here's an interesting 19th century example:
| Quote: | | "The body is but the complicate organism of a complicate mind, which is natural, eternal organism, and from which..." |
Immortality triumphant: The Existence of a God and Human Immortality. By John Bovee Dods. pg 29
I think "complicated" would express a different idea there. If used, it would have negative semantic prosody*, IMO.
*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantic_prosody
In the same book:
"The body is, in all its complicate parts, but a natural result of mind itself." pg 28
More on pg 41. |
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Molly
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| blunder vs error | user guide vs. user's guide |
