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Are people guilty for the sins of their ancestors?


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Are people guilty for the sins of their ancestors? #1 (permalink) Sun Jun 08, 2008 16:39 pm   Are people guilty for the sins of their ancestors?
 

Germans born in the 1950s, '60s, '70s and later have trouble in various parts of the world because many people in other countries blame them for the Nazi genocide and World War II, even though they weren't even born yet when those things happened.

In the 1500s, the Europeans instituted a slave trade from African to America. In the US, this lasted until the 1860s, when a bloody war was fought to stop it. Nonetheless, many Europeans still blame Americans for having had a slave trade, even though the Europeans started it and the Americans abolished it. (Notice also that people from other slave nations, such as Brazil, don't get the same resentment.)

In the past 50 years, more Africans have immigrated to the United States voluntarily than were forced over as slaves. Now there are problems with fights in high schools between African-Americans and Africans, because the African-American kids tell the Africans, "Your people sold our people into slavery." Unbelievable, but true in many schools.

Do you think people are guilty of their ancestors' sins? What about their imagined sins? What about the sins of people who are not their ancestors but are the same color or speak the same language they do?
Jamie (K)
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Joined: 24 Feb 2006
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Are people guilty for the sins of their ancestors? #2 (permalink) Sun Jun 08, 2008 19:00 pm   Are people guilty for the sins of their ancestors?
 

In Ireland, the 'English' are still blamed for 800 years of suffering. Every 20 years or so it seems to be 50 years more. In fact, the English first came to Ireland in the later days of the 12th century and retreated in 1921. Today, I don't think that there're too many people alive who knew anybody who was involved in incedents that happened under British rule. Any sentence starting '800 years of suffering...' doesn't bring out the lustre of conscious reflection, because people usually use it to justify a squishy resentment against English people in general.
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Are people guilty for the sins of their ancestors? #3 (permalink) Sun Jun 08, 2008 19:27 pm   Are people guilty for the sins of their ancestors?
 

Quote:
Are people guilty for the sins of their ancestors?


Do you feel guilty?
Molly
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Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017

Are people guilty for the sins of their ancestors? #4 (permalink) Sun Jun 08, 2008 19:31 pm   Are people guilty for the sins of their ancestors?
 

Quote:
Any sentence starting '800 years of suffering...' doesn't bring out the lustre of conscious reflection, because people usually use it to justify a squishy resentment against English people in general.


I agree, such openings are similar to Jamie's "Feminist usually...", "Black people usually" and "Leftists usually...".
Molly
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Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017

Are people guilty for the sins of their ancestors? #5 (permalink) Sun Jun 08, 2008 19:46 pm   Are people guilty for the sins of their ancestors?
 

Is blaming someone for the sins of their ancestors similar to blaming all Muslims, for example, for the sins of their "peers"?
Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)


Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017

Are people guilty for the sins of their ancestors? #6 (permalink) Sun Jun 08, 2008 19:49 pm   Are people guilty for the sins of their ancestors?
 

, ><even though the Europeans started it and the Americans abolished it.>>

Many of them were the same people, right? I mean, many US-based Europeans became Americans upon independence, right?
Molly
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Joined: 12 Feb 2008
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Are people guilty for the sins of their ancestors? #7 (permalink) Sun Jun 08, 2008 23:15 pm   Are people guilty for the sins of their ancestors?
 

Molly wrote:
, ><even though the Europeans started it and the Americans abolished it.>>

Many of them were the same people, right? I mean, many US-based Europeans became Americans upon independence, right?

The slave trade was started by the Europeans in the 1500s, largely by the Spanish and the Portuguese. The American republic was founded in 1776, so nobody who originated the slave trade was still alive at that time. Some people were still trading slaves. Slavery was rare in the North, and most Northerners never owned slaves. Many black Americans owned black slaves. Many Northerners whose families had never owned slaves were active in the abolitionist movement and/or enlisted in the Union army with the explicit intention of abolishing slavery. The vast majority of Americans are descended from people who arrived after slavery had been abolished.

AND, there is no American alive today who is either a slave or a slaveholder (if you exclude procurers of prostitutes or owners of illegal sweat shops, but those people get busted relatively fast).
Jamie (K)
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Are people guilty for the sins of their ancestors? #8 (permalink) Sun Jun 08, 2008 23:22 pm   Are people guilty for the sins of their ancestors?
 

Molly wrote:
Quote:
Any sentence starting '800 years of suffering...' doesn't bring out the lustre of conscious reflection, because people usually use it to justify a squishy resentment against English people in general.


I agree, such openings are similar to Jamie's "Feminist usually...", "Black people usually" and "Leftists usually...".

Close but no cigar. There are general trends of thought among feminists. There are specific voting patterns proven to be statistically common among American blacks. Leftists, or "progressives" as they like to call themselves now, have a certain common body of belief, with some variation, that even they admit to having. If they didn't, they wouldn't be able to form political movements.

As you should have learned in elementary school, a few exceptions don't disprove a generalization, only a stereotype.

And pointing out the typical real beliefs and behaviors of people who are still alive is nothing like holding living people responsible for things that dead people did 300 years ago.
Jamie (K)
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Joined: 24 Feb 2006
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Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA

Are people guilty for the sins of their ancestors? #9 (permalink) Sun Jun 08, 2008 23:23 pm   Are people guilty for the sins of their ancestors?
 

Quote:
AND, there is no American alive today who is either a slave or a slaveholder


Define "slave", would you?
Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)


Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017

Are people guilty for the sins of their ancestors? #10 (permalink) Sun Jun 08, 2008 23:26 pm   Are people guilty for the sins of their ancestors?
 

Quote:
Close but no cigar. There are general trends of thought among feminists. There are specific voting patterns proven to be statistically common among American blacks. Leftists, or "progressives" as they like to call themselves now, have a certain common body of belief, with some variation, that even they admit to having. If they didn't, they wouldn't be able to form political movements


Sounds like smoke and mirrors to me, Jamie. You spend most of your time on this forum knocking others - normally the easy targets - and marketing you squeaky clean image.
Molly
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Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017

Are people guilty for the sins of their ancestors? #11 (permalink) Sun Jun 08, 2008 23:30 pm   Are people guilty for the sins of their ancestors?
 

Molly wrote:
Quote:
Close but no cigar. There are general trends of thought among feminists. There are specific voting patterns proven to be statistically common among American blacks. Leftists, or "progressives" as they like to call themselves now, have a certain common body of belief, with some variation, that even they admit to having. If they didn't, they wouldn't be able to form political movements


Sounds like smoke and mirrors to me, Jamie. You spend most of your time on this forum knocking others - normally the easy targets - and marketing you squeaky clean image.

You're an easy target, Molly. There's no smoke and mirrors there. It's clear to people who can think clearly.

You spend a good deal of your time on the forum trying to ridicule me, even if you have to change the subject to do it. And I sure can't imagine how anything I post would present a squeaky clean image.
Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)


Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 5332
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA

Are people guilty for the sins of their ancestors? #12 (permalink) Sun Jun 08, 2008 23:32 pm   Are people guilty for the sins of their ancestors?
 

Quote:
You're an easy target, Molly. There's no smoke and mirrors there. It's clear to people who can think clearly.


You can think clearly? So tell me what you think about this?

<Is blaming someone for the sins of their ancestors similar to blaming all Muslims, for example, for the sins of their "peers"?>

Quote:
You spend a good deal of your time on the forum trying to ridicule me, even if you have to change the subject to do it.


Hey, show where the subject changed. I see it as the same subject. Again you post a thread where you want to control the response you get. Why?
Molly
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Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017

Are people guilty for the sins of their ancestors? #13 (permalink) Sun Jun 08, 2008 23:40 pm   Are people guilty for the sins of their ancestors?
 

Molly wrote:
<Is blaming someone for the sins of their ancestors similar to blaming all Muslims, for example, for the sins of their "peers"?>

Yes, it is similar. I'm glad I don't know anyone who does it.

Molly wrote:
Quote:
You spend a good deal of your time on the forum trying to ridicule me, even if you have to change the subject to do it.


Hey, show where the subject changed. I see it as the same subject. Again you post a thread where you want to control the response you get. Why?

There you go with one of your strategies again. All over the forum you change the subject when you're backed into a corner and want to attack the person who did it. On this one thread you didn't change the subject. So you attack me for my behavior on the forum as a whole, but when I point out your behavior on the forum as a whole, you narrow the discussion down to just one thread where you didn't do what I said you do.
Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)


Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 5332
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA

Are people guilty for the sins of their ancestors? #14 (permalink) Sun Jun 08, 2008 23:42 pm   Are people guilty for the sins of their ancestors?
 

I feel Jamie's thread could push people to belittle the claims discussed here:

"NEW YORK (CNN) -- Attorneys for a former law student, who discovered evidence linking U.S. corporations to the slave trade, filed a federal lawsuit Tuesday that could seek billions of dollars in reparations for the descendants of slaves in America."

http://edition.cnn.com/2002/LAW/03/26/slavery.reparations/

(Maybe that's Jamie's intention.)
Molly
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Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017

Are people guilty for the sins of their ancestors? #15 (permalink) Mon Jun 09, 2008 8:28 am   Are people guilty for the sins of their ancestors?
 

Hey, Jamie, do you think the Japanese are right here?

"TOKYO, March 5 — Prime Minister Shinzo Abe said today that if the United States Congress demands that Japan apologize for his nation’s use of foreign women as sexual slaves during World War II, his government will refuse to comply."
Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)


Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017

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