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 Wed Jun 11, 2008 21:23 pm Can I say: "If I have chance go there, I'll pay her a visit"? |
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Just to confirm what Amy said: the version without the article —
1. ???If I have chance to travel to London, I'll pay her a visit.
— would be incorrect in written or spoken standard BrE.
Best wishes,
MrP |
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MrPedantic
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| Wed Jun 11, 2008 21:47 pm Can I say: "If I have chance go there, I'll pay her a visit"? |
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| Quote: | | would be incorrect in written or spoken standard BrE. |
Really? Can you show us a standard English rule or rule book dealing with spoken English and which insists on the article?
In fact, do tell us what standard spoken British English is, will you? |
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Molly
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| Wed Jun 11, 2008 23:06 pm Can I say: "If I have chance go there, I'll pay her a visit"? |
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| Molly wrote: | Really? Can you show us a standard English rule or rule book dealing with spoken English and which insists on the article?
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Why would I need to consult a "rule book"?
If I were to ask Nessie about a particular phrase in her own first language, and Nessie were to say, "No, that isn't correct", or "No, that doesn't sound right", I would know perfectly well what Nessie meant. It would be absurd to say "show me the rule-book that says you're right".
In this instance,
1. ???If I have chance to travel to London, I'll pay her a visit.
2. If I have the chance to travel to London, I'll pay her a visit.
version #1 would immediately suggest a non-native speaker, to a native speaker of BrE; while version #2 wouldn't.
It would therefore be quite misleading to tell Nessie that #1 is somehow "correct", or even a likely variant, among native speakers.
MrP |
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MrPedantic
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| Thu Jun 12, 2008 0:50 am Can I say: "If I have chance go there, I'll pay her a visit"? |
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| Quote: | | If I were to ask Nessie about a particular phrase in her own first language, and Nessie were to say, "No, that isn't correct", or "No, that doesn't sound right", I would know perfectly well what Nessie meant. It would be absurd to say "show me the rule-book that says you're right". |
Interesting, as most of the rule books world over do indeed describe the standard form of each language and a heel of a lot of people, including many native speakers do feel the need to consult such "guides" at some time. In effect, what you are saying is that you, personally, do not need to consult such, right?
And, many native speakers here have been wrong in their judgements upon English usage. Should we not, in such cases, be justified in calling for assistance on standard English rule/grammarbooks? The more sources, the merrier, IMO.
So, to my second question:
Do tell us what standard spoken British English is, will you?
| Quote: | | version #1 would immediately suggest a non-native speaker, to a native speaker of BrE; while version #2 wouldn't. |
Which part of version #1? BTW, my husband is a native English speaker, teacher and a manager of a large ESL academy. He doesn't agree with you. He says that many native BrEng speakers use "if I have/get chance, I'll..." when speaking.
And you stated this: "would be incorrect in written or spoken standard BrE." So, have you heard it used in Britain, by natives, in any other dialect/sociolect? |
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Molly
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| Thu Jun 12, 2008 0:56 am Can I say: "If I have chance go there, I'll pay her a visit"? |
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| Molly wrote: | Do tell us what standard spoken British English is, will you?
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Standard spoken British English is the form of British English in which #2, but not #1, is correct:
1. ???If I have chance to travel to London, I'll pay her a visit.
2. If I have the chance to travel to London, I'll pay her a visit.
MrP |
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MrPedantic
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| Thu Jun 12, 2008 1:00 am Can I say: "If I have chance go there, I'll pay her a visit"? |
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| Molly wrote: | BTW, my husband is a native English speaker, teacher and a manager of a large ESL academy.
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What is his name, and what is the name of the academy?
MrP |
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MrPedantic
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| Thu Jun 12, 2008 1:00 am Can I say: "If I have chance go there, I'll pay her a visit"? |
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| MrPedantic wrote: | | Molly wrote: | Do tell us what standard spoken British English is, will you?
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Standard spoken British English is the form of British English in which #2, but not #1, is correct:
1. ???If I have chance to travel to London, I'll pay her a visit.
2. If I have the chance to travel to London, I'll pay her a visit.
MrP |
Really? And how is it different from written standard English? Are the rules for such a form written down somewhere? Are they prescribed by anyone in particular? And who speaks it? |
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Molly
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| Thu Jun 12, 2008 1:00 am Can I say: "If I have chance go there, I'll pay her a visit"? |
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| MrPedantic wrote: | | Molly wrote: | BTW, my husband is a native English speaker, teacher and a manager of a large ESL academy.
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What is his name, and what is the name of the academy?
MrP |
What's your address and that of your mother? |
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Molly
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| Thu Jun 12, 2008 1:26 am Can I say: "If I have chance go there, I'll pay her a visit"? |
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| Molly wrote: | | What's your address and that of your mother? |
I'm not sure I mentioned any family members, old chap; so their whereabouts is irrelevant.
| Molly wrote: | BTW, my husband is a native English speaker, teacher and a manager of a large ESL academy.
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Here, however, you present a third party as a witness. Now anyone can say "X runs an ESL school, and X says Y"; but if you provide some corroborative detail, the witness will become more credible.
MrP |
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MrPedantic
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| Thu Jun 12, 2008 1:41 am Can I say: "If I have chance go there, I'll pay her a visit"? |
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| Quote: | | I'm not sure I mentioned any family members, old chap; so their whereabouts is irrelevant. |
Am I strange in considering my husband a family member?
| Quote: | | Here, however, you present a third party as a witness. |
Hm, gets more interesting every day. Jamie bring in third parties all the time. Why don't you ever question him about such? Native clique?
So let me get this straight, you present yourself as the authority of standard spoken English, right? Your word is it, right? |
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Molly
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| Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:08 am Can I say: "If I have chance go there, I'll pay her a visit"? |
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| Molly wrote: | Am I strange in considering my husband a family member?
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You've misunderstood. "I'm not sure I mentioned any of my family members."
| Molly wrote: | | Jamie bring in third parties all the time. Why don't you ever question him about such? |
I'm surprised by your response. Cf.
| Molly wrote: | We're back to Jamie's "I know a man/woman/friend/dog who..." ploy.
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MrP |
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MrPedantic
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| Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:22 am Can I say: "If I have chance go there, I'll pay her a visit"? |
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| Molly wrote: | | BTW, my husband is a native English speaker, teacher and a manager of a large ESL academy. He doesn't agree with you. He says that many native BrEng speakers use "if I have/get chance, I'll..." when speaking. |
I seem to recall that you said you live in a country where English is not the native language. Spain, wasn't it? Could this be a case of second language interference? Perhaps it's time to consider the possibility that what you posted in another thread might be applicable in hubby's case:
| Molly wrote: | | I've also seen many native teachers who are no longer capable of such - mainly those who have been living outside English speaking countries for quite a while. So, as far as education goes, I think you would agree with me and a few other commentators that if nonnonative speakers can never deserve the label "native-speaker", so too should we resist giving the latter label to many ex-pat teachers. |
How would you say "If I have a chance" in Spanish? Possible without the article? 
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Amy
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ESL teacher, translator, and a native speaker of American English |
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Yankee
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| Thu Jun 12, 2008 8:37 am Can I say: "If I have chance go there, I'll pay her a visit"? |
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| Well, so lastly, which is better "If I have a chance..." or "If I have the chance..."? |
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nessie
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| Thu Jun 12, 2008 9:00 am Can I say: "If I have chance go there, I'll pay her a visit"? |
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Could this be a case of second language interference?
1. My husband is British and has been living here for one year.
2. Do you think Spanish language interference has got through to these speakers?
"To the sound of some fool mucking about on a Bontempi organ, a jogger collapses in the street. He wakes up in hospital and soon realises that for some reason, he's minus a leg, and being tended to by a saucy nurse.
Before you have chance to wonder what the bloody hell's going on there, you're whisked off to what appears to be Nazi Germany, where Peter "Last Of The Summer Wine" Sallis gets given the old death grip treatment by some bloke."
http://www.britishhorrorfilms.co.uk/screamand.shtml
"You will be given the chance to gain work experience in an educational setting linked to your choice of career pathway. In addition you will be introduced to or reminded of practical skills which you will have chance to observe or put into practice in the workplace."
http://www.hull.ac.uk/sse/courses/edStudies/courseOverview.html
"7:00pm After the service we meet in the Upper Room at Elvet where we share some food and a cup of tea. Each week, a different speaker will join us for an informal session where we’ll have chance to learn about and discuss some interesting topics."
http://www.dur.ac.uk/methodist.society/2ThisWeek/Old/Term%20Calendars/michaelmasTerm2007.htm
(Note how both forms - i.e. with and without the article - are used in that text.)
"Focussing on the Will Pits area of the site.
With luck, visitors will have chance toboth hear and see the red deer as well as
seeing roe deer and other species such
as tawny owl and maybe even badgers."
http://www.naturalengland.org.uk/regions/yorkshumber/events/Humbrhead_peatland_events2008.pdf
Parents and friends can accompany you on the day when you will have chance to attend sessions about our Civil Engineering and Geomatics degrees, see our facilities and also meet some of our current students.
http://www.ceg.ncl.ac.uk/visiting/opendaysug.htm
When an opponent is receiving a pass, attack straight away before they have chance to look around or co-ordinate themselves. They'll generally be too busy concentrating on the puck and won't see you coming.
http://www.sunstar.org.uk/octop/
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Si usted tiene la ocasión, lea un pequeño acerca de español.
Si usted consigue una ocasión, lea un poco sobre español. |
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Molly
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| Sentence Correction: when I was studying B.tech, One of my Lecturer's speech... | "enough to decide" vs "ufficiently to decide" |
)