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 #47 (permalink) Thu Jun 12, 2008 20:27 pm Can I say: "If I have chance go there, I'll pay her a visit"? |
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| Molly wrote: |
Interesting, as most of the rule books world over do indeed describe the standard form of each language and a heel of a lot of people, including many native speakers do feel the need to consult such "guides" at some time. In effect, what you are saying is that you, personally, do not need to consult such, right?
And, many native speakers here have been wrong in their judgements upon English usage. Should we not, in such cases, be justified in calling for assistance on standard English rule/grammarbooks? The more sources, the merrier, IMO.
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You've missed the point.
A genuine non-native speaker might well ask questions, compare answers, and consult guides to grammar.
But a genuine non-native speaker would not stick his thumbs in his waistband and say, "Prove it! Show me the rule-book that says you're right!".
It would be as absurd as my saying to a native Spanish speaker, "Prove that that's the natural way to say have the chance in Spanish!"
MrP |
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MrPedantic
I'm a Communicator ;-)
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Location: Southern England
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| #48 (permalink) Thu Jun 12, 2008 20:28 pm Can I say: "If I have chance go there, I'll pay her a visit"? |
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| nessie wrote: |
| Well, so lastly, which is better "If I have a chance..." or "If I have the chance..."? |
1. If I get the chance to visit London, I'll do Y.
2. If I get a chance to visit London, I'll do Y.
For me, #1 focuses on "doing Y"; getting the chance is secondary. In #2, however, there is also a sense of interest in the chance itself: "if I get any chance..."
(It may well be different for other speakers, though.)
MrP |
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MrPedantic
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 1319
Location: Southern England
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| #49 (permalink) Thu Jun 12, 2008 20:41 pm Can I say: "If I have chance go there, I'll pay her a visit"? |
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| MrPedantic wrote: |
1. If I get the chance to visit London, I'll do Y.
2. If I get a chance to visit London, I'll do Y.
For me, #1 focuses on "doing Y"; getting the chance is secondary. In #2, however, there is also a sense of interest in the chance itself: "if I get any chance..."
(It may well be different for other speakers, though.)
MrP |
Hi, MrP
Do you think that "If I get the chance ..." underlines the rareness of the chance, as though it's difficult to get that chance, or the chance is only one in a lifetime? Conversely, "If I get a chance ..." suggests that there're lots of chances to go there. |
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Lost_Soul
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| #50 (permalink) Thu Jun 12, 2008 20:59 pm Can I say: "If I have chance go there, I'll pay her a visit"? |
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| Quote: |
| My conjecture is that Molly's hubby didn't want to upset her by telling her that "have chance" is wrong, so he decided to leave Molly in a state of blissful unawareness by assuring her that "have chance" is right. |
Which planet are you on? |
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Molly
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| #51 (permalink) Thu Jun 12, 2008 21:07 pm Can I say: "If I have chance go there, I'll pay her a visit"? |
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| Quote: |
| But a genuine non-native speaker would not stick his thumbs in his waistband and say, "Prove it! Show me the rule-book that says you're right!". |
Don't be so stupid! Of course certain non-natives would ask that. The ones who have heard the item many times in an English speaking country, for one. The ones who have seen many years of native speaker blunders when it comes to advice on usage. Those people are justified in asking. Now you can refuse to comply with such "demands", but you cannot deny the questioner the right to ask such.
| Quote: |
| "Prove that that's the natural way to say have the chance in Spanish!" |
Here we go again on Mr P's turnaround time. Listen Mr P, decide! Is, in BrEng, "have chance" unnatural, or is it not correct English usage. And, if you say it's not correct, do you mean in your opinion, or do you mean in the opinion of the majority of educated native British English speakers? Don't fluff around. |
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Molly
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Joined: 12 Feb 2008
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| #52 (permalink) Thu Jun 12, 2008 21:23 pm Can I say: "If I have chance go there, I'll pay her a visit"? |
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| lost_soul wrote: |
| Do you think that "If I get the chance ..." underlines the rareness of the chance, as though it's difficult to get that chance, or the chance is only one in a lifetime? Conversely, "If I get a chance ..." suggests that there're lots of chances to go there. |
Yes, I see what you mean – "the chance" picks out "the chance"; while "a chance" picks out one among several.
All the best,
MrP |
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MrPedantic
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| #53 (permalink) Fri Jun 13, 2008 0:07 am Can I say: "If I have chance go there, I'll pay her a visit"? |
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Hi MrP and Alex
Your points seem reasonable to me. However, I also think that the difference in meaning between 'a chance' and 'the chance' in Nessie's particular sentence would be very small. Either article could be used.
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Yankee
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| #54 (permalink) Fri Jun 13, 2008 0:11 am Can I say: "If I have chance go there, I'll pay her a visit"? |
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| To me - in the mind of the speaker - "to get a chance" sounds less likely to happen than "get the chance". |
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Molly
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| #55 (permalink) Fri Jun 13, 2008 0:28 am Can I say: "If I have chance go there, I'll pay her a visit"? |
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| Molly wrote: |
| Quote: |
But a genuine non-native speaker would not stick his thumbs in his waistband and say, "Prove it! Show me the rule-book that says you're right!".
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Of course certain non-natives would ask that. The ones who have heard the item many times in an English speaking country, for one. The ones who have seen many years of native speaker blunders when it comes to advice on usage. Those people are justified in asking.
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No; show me the person who says "Prove it! Show me the rule-book that says you're right!" on an ESL forum, and I'll show you a native speaker.
| Molly wrote: |
"Don't be so stupid"
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That on the other hand you might hear.
| Molly wrote: |
| Quote: |
| "Prove that that's the natural way to say have the chance in Spanish!" |
Here we go again on Mr P's turnaround time. Listen Mr P, decide! Is, in BrEng, "have chance" unnatural, or is it not correct English usage. And, if you say it's not correct, do you mean in your opinion, or do you mean in the opinion of the majority of educated native British English speakers? Don't fluff around.
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I'm not quite sure which part of this you find unclear:
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Standard spoken British English is the form of British English in which #2, but not #1, is correct:
1. ???If I have chance to travel to London, I'll pay her a visit.
2. If I have the chance to travel to London, I'll pay her a visit.
MrP
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MrP |
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MrPedantic
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 1319
Location: Southern England
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| #56 (permalink) Fri Jun 13, 2008 0:29 am Can I say: "If I have chance go there, I'll pay her a visit"? |
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| Yankee wrote: |
Hi MrP and Alex
Your points seem reasonable to me. However, I also think that the difference in meaning between 'a chance' and 'the chance' in Nessie's particular sentence would be very small. Either article could be used.
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Yes, I agree; if there is a difference, it wouldn't be significant.
MrP |
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MrPedantic
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
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Location: Southern England
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| #57 (permalink) Fri Jun 13, 2008 8:00 am Can I say: "If I have chance go there, I'll pay her a visit"? |
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| Quote: |
| No; show me the person who says "Prove it! Show me the rule-book that says you're right!" on an ESL forum, and I'll show you a native speaker. |
Great. Your experience is your own, as always, Mr P. Why do you insist that that experience should be everyone's?
| Quote: |
| I'm not quite sure which part of this you find unclear: |
For example, does "the unnatural way" always mean "incorrect", IYO? |
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Molly
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| #58 (permalink) Fri Jun 13, 2008 17:51 pm Can I say: "If I have chance go there, I'll pay her a visit"? |
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| Molly wrote: |
| Why you insist that that experience should be everyone's? |
Would you advise ESL students that the wording of your question is "acceptable" and/or "natural"? Would you advise ESL students to emulate (exactly) the wording you used in that question?
Or might you possibly tell an ESL student that you had unintentionally omitted a word in that sentence? 
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Yankee
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| #59 (permalink) Fri Jun 13, 2008 20:27 pm Can I say: "If I have chance go there, I'll pay her a visit"? |
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| Yankee wrote: |
Would you advise ESL students to emulate (exactly) the wording you used in that question?
Or might you possibly tell an ESL student that you had unintentionally omitted a word in that sentence?
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That "baa-baaa!" gets louder all the time.
Still waiting for that expansion on "maybe it's second language interference". |
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Molly
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| Sentence Correction: when I was studying B.tech, One of my Lecturer's speech... | "enough to decide" vs "ufficiently to decide" |
