|
|
 #32 (permalink) Sat Jun 21, 2008 23:52 pm Standard spoken English: What is it? |
|
|
| Molly wrote: |
| Quote: |
| If I learn language X from a book, I expect the accompanying CDs to contain dialogues in a consistent form of X that is free from dialect words, regional grammatical forms, rural accents, |
So, no speakers of standard English have rural accents, right? |
You missed the proviso: "Unless of course they're flagged as such".
The point is not that rural accents should not be used in audio material, but that the learner should be made aware that they are rural accents.
For instance, if the CDs that accompanied a French course used the southern pronunciation of "vingt" without comment, the learner might adopt it. But if an Englishman says "vingt" with a southern French pronunciation in a shop in Paris, it sounds not at all like a southern Frenchman, and very much like a speak-as-you-spell rosbif.
MrP |
|
MrPedantic
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 1326
Location: Southern England
|
|
| #33 (permalink) Sat Jun 21, 2008 23:53 pm Standard spoken English: What is it? |
|
|
| Molly wrote: |
| Quote: |
| If the spoken version can be described as "spoken written English", then the written version can equally be described as "written spoken English". |
Really? And how far back in time would you have to go to justify the use of the latter expression?
|
It is generally agreed that speaking preceded writing.
Thus "written spoken English" is perhaps more reasonable than "spoken written English".
MrP |
|
MrPedantic
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 1326
Location: Southern England
|
 |
| #34 (permalink) Sat Jun 21, 2008 23:55 pm Standard spoken English: What is it? |
|
|
| Quote: |
| You missed the proviso: "Unless of course they're flagged as such". |
You would need the rural accents of standard English to be flagged? Why?
| Quote: |
| But if an Englishman says "vingt" with a southern French pronunciation in a shop in Paris, it sounds not at all like a southern Frenchman, and very much like a speak-as-you-spell rosbif. |
Do you think Mr speak-as-you-spell rosbif would be understood nontheless? |
|
Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017
|
|
| #35 (permalink) Sat Jun 21, 2008 23:57 pm Standard spoken English: What is it? |
|
|
| Quote: |
| It is generally agreed that speaking preceded writing. |
When referring to standard British English, whose speaking and whose writing?
| Quote: |
| Thus "written spoken English" is perhaps more reasonable than "spoken written English". |
Again, referring to standard British English, you could justify the use of former term around 400 years ago.
BTW, would you use "thus" in "standard spoken British English"? Does your "standard spoken British English" have registers, etc.? |
|
Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017
|
|
| #36 (permalink) Sun Jun 22, 2008 0:05 am Standard spoken English: What is it? |
|
|
| Molly wrote: |
| Do you think Mr speak-as-you-spell rosbif would be understood nontheless? |
I suspect Mr Speak-as-you-Spell (or Speak-as-you-Misspell, in this instance) rosbif would get marginally better service if he pronounced "vingt" in the standard fashion.
MrP |
|
MrPedantic
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 1326
Location: Southern England
|
|
| #37 (permalink) Sun Jun 22, 2008 0:14 am Standard spoken English: What is it? |
|
|
| MrPedantic wrote: |
I suspect Mr Speak-as-you-Spell (or Speak-as-you-Misspell, in this instance) rosbif would get marginally better service if he pronounced "vingt" in the standard fashion.
MrP |
Only in the most pedantic of establishments, right?
Tell me, in this "standard spoken British English" you speak of, do users speak as they would write and vice-versa?
So, getting into the guts of your "standard spoken British English dialect" would these examples fit the bill?
I'm going to have a glass of Merlot 82, me.
I'm having pie and chips, I am.
He complains all the time, he does.
It's not actually very good is it this play?
We're always getting it wrong, us?
She must be quite a good writer, you know.
-------
Why I called you was that I wanted to ask you out.
What interests me with that is it's free.
That's what he said was the biggest turn off.
Where they always make a mistake is with the choice of location. |
|
Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017
|
|
| #38 (permalink) Sun Jun 22, 2008 2:47 am Standard spoken English: What is it? |
|
|
| Quote: |
I'm going to have a glass of Merlot 82, me.
I'm having pie and chips, I am.
He complains all the time, he does.
It's not actually very good is it this play?
We're always getting it wrong, us?
She must be quite a good writer, you know.
-------
Why I called you was that I wanted to ask you out.
What interests me with that is it's free.
That's what he said was the biggest turn off.
Where they always make a mistake is with the choice of location. |
There seems to be a pretty strong Irish influence on your word choice, Molly. How come?
_________________
Test of English as a Foreign Language
TOEFL Preparation & TOEFL Vocabulary
Learn more: How to Become an English Teacher |
|
 Ralf
Language Coach
Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 1564
Location: EU (Ireland and Germany)
|
|
| #39 (permalink) Sun Jun 22, 2008 7:54 am Standard spoken English: What is it? |
|
|
There seems to be a pretty strong Irish influence on your word choice, Molly. How come?
Could you be more specific? Which sentences sound "Irish" to you. And, are you, like Mr P, in the habit of asking a question before you've answered one that has been put to you?
I repeat:
| Quote: |
Quote Ralf:
They are mostly aware of the tasty morsels of Irish English, but communicate in a way that would be universally understood. |
Where does the model for their spoken exchanges come from? What is the source? If one needed to learn what Mr P calls "standard spoken British English", which materials, etc. would he/she use, or refer to?[/quote]
And not sure of the implications of what you're saying here:
| Quote: |
| They are mostly aware of the tasty morsels of Irish English, but communicate in a way that would be universally understood. |
Are you saying that Irish English speakers would have to learn Mr P's spoken standard British English if they wanted to communicate universally? |
|
Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017
|
|
| #40 (permalink) Sun Jun 22, 2008 8:17 am Standard spoken English: What is it? |
|
|
| Molly wrote: |
| MrPedantic wrote: |
I suspect Mr Speak-as-you-Spell (or Speak-as-you-Misspell, in this instance) rosbif would get marginally better service if he pronounced "vingt" in the standard fashion.
MrP |
Only in the most pedantic of establishments, right?
|
I suspect that a twinkle of irony (or a simple "Vingt?") would be common to more than "the most pedantic of establishments".
MrP |
|
MrPedantic
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 1326
Location: Southern England
|
|
| #41 (permalink) Sun Jun 22, 2008 10:52 am Standard spoken English: What is it? |
|
|
| Tell us which English "rural items" you would like omitted from your version of "spoken Standard British English", will you? |
|
Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017
|
|
| #42 (permalink) Sun Jun 22, 2008 12:24 pm Standard spoken English: What is it? |
|
|
| Molly wrote: |
| Quote: |
| You missed the proviso: "Unless of course they're flagged as such". |
You would need the rural accents of standard English to be flagged? Why?
|
Common sense. (Rural or regional accents, by the way.)
MrP |
|
MrPedantic
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 1326
Location: Southern England
|
|
| #43 (permalink) Sun Jun 22, 2008 12:25 pm Standard spoken English: What is it? |
|
|
| Molly wrote: |
| Tell us which English "rural items" you would like omitted form your version of "spoken Standard British English", will you? |
To what end?
MrP |
|
MrPedantic
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 1326
Location: Southern England
|
|
| #44 (permalink) Sun Jun 22, 2008 14:51 pm Standard spoken English: What is it? |
|
|
| Molly wrote: |
| Are you saying that Irish English speakers would have to learn Mr P's spoken standard British English if they wanted to communicate universally? |
Do you think that's what he meant? And why would I say that?
_________________
Test of English as a Foreign Language
TOEFL Preparation & TOEFL Vocabulary
Learn more: How to Become an English Teacher |
|
Ralf
Language Coach
Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 1564
Location: EU (Ireland and Germany)
|
|
| #45 (permalink) Sun Jun 22, 2008 15:58 pm Standard spoken English: What is it? |
|
|
| Molly wrote: |
| And, are you, like Mr P, in the habit of asking a question before you've answered one that has been put to you? |
Are you?
_________________
"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power." ~ Abraham Lincoln |
|
Yankee
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 16 Apr 2006
Posts: 8316
Location: USA
|
|
|
| Chinese Arabic or Russian? | Gobbledegook |
