Expression "the time when..."

[nessie]

Hi,
I forget whether I've asked this question or not, but anyway, even if I have, I can't remember the answer now, so please have a look at it:

Is it redundant if we say "the time when"? and why?

- Last year was the time when she was most happy
- The teachers have had some problems deciding the time when the final papers should be returned to the students

Many thanks
Nessie
_________________
... something we never have again, I know... I guess I really really know..

Sorry seems to be the hardest word...

[Haihao]

Both are fine, I think, and I don't think to say "the time when..." is redundant all about.

[nessie]

What about the version without "when"? (which, may be, implies "the time that")
Is it wrong and if not, what's the difference between the two usages?

Many thanks
Nessie

[Haihao]

"the time that" sounds more formal to me.

[nessie]

May I know some native speakers' ideas, please?

[Barb_D]

Yes, it's redundant, and yes, it's used that way all the time, especially in vivid story-telling when you relate an incident.

"Hey, remember that time when were were about six, and we went to the Yarmouth Clam Fesitval?"
"No, I don't remember that!"
"Oh, you must! That was the time when you ate that huge thing of fried dough and then threw up from the Ferris wheel!"
"No, you're wrong. I threw up from the Ferris wheel at the Great Aventure. But now I remember - the Clam Fesitval was when you stuck the whole candied apple in your mouth at once and your mother thought we'd have to get the jaws of life to get it out."

[Yankee]

Sounds like you've had some interesting experiences with kids, Barb. Yours?

_________________
Amy
.
ESL teacher, translator, and a native speaker of American English

[Barb_D]

Nah, I made that up. They and I have never thrown up on anything. Knock wood.

And darn it, I was making another post, trying to say when I would use "That was when you..." compared to "That was the time [that] you...." and I hit the wrong key and it disappeared.

[Barb_D]

Yes, it's redundant, and yes, it's used that way all the time, especially in vivid story-telling when you relate an incident.

"Hey, remember that time when were were about six, and we went to the Yarmouth Clam Fesitval?"
"No, I don't remember that!"
"Oh, you must! That was the time when you ate that huge thing of fried dough and then threw up from the Ferris wheel!"
"No, you're wrong. I threw up from the Ferris wheel at the Great Aventure. But now I remember - the Clam Fesitval was when you stuck the whole candied apple in your mouth at once and your mother thought we'd have to get the jaws of life to get it out."

[nessie]

So "the time when..." is redundant?
I still don't understand why...

And did you say it's used all the time though it's redundant? Even in formal English? :O

[Barb_D]

No, I would not use it in formal English. Use either "that was when" or "that was the time" but not both.

You can say "That was the time you..." when you want to distinguish it from prior of subsquent times. That was the time you went without first making reseverations and ended up spending the first night in your rental car.

You can say "That was when you..." to identify something that happened or was going on. That was when you were still married to Peter. That was when you had that crazy haircut.

[nessie]

Hi everybody

I found these in the BYU, please have a look at them:

AmE corpus:
http://corpus.byu.edu/time/x.asp

BrE corpus:
http://corpus.byu.edu/bnc/x.asp

[Barb_D]

Great link.

"... from the time when he was governor of Texas." -- This covers an entire period of time. I completely recant my saying it's redundant when you are referring to an entire period of time. I was focused on specific incidents, like my amusement park example.

If you can replace the word "time" with "period," then "the time when" equates to "the period in which."

[nessie]

Thanks a lot, Barb

So you mean when the word "time" in the phrase "the time when" can be replaced by "period", it's correct and compulsory to use "the time when" and not "the time that"?
But when it doesn't mean a period of time we MUST use "the time that" and "the time when" is redundant and COMPLETELY wrong in this case?

So how about this:

Last year was the time when she was most happy
Last year was the time that she was most happy
Last year was the period of time in which she was most happy

Many thanks

[nessie]

I've just thought of another possibility: What if it's a cleft sentence? (just like the case of "the reason why"/"the reason that")