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 #17 (permalink) Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:55 am Supporting myths |
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| Haihao wrote: |
| The problem is English has many 'forms': American English, British English, etc. Those staying the US think AmE is the standard and those staying in the UK think BrE is. This is most convenient and inevitable for them. But we also cannot forget there ARE people in Singapore, for example, studying SgE and inevitably, too considering that is the standard of their own. |
It all comes down to the question "Why are you learning English?" If you learn English because your parents or teachers told you to, it's very likely that you won't pay attention to which standard of English you are learning. As a matter of fact, it's very likely that you won't learn much English at all. If, on the other hand, you do your own thinking and you can decide what you want to learn by selecting your learning materials, recourses and people yourself rather than relying on your teachers, parents and friends.
If you want to learn Chinese English or Nigerian English, you will find the means and resources to do so. For example, you can try to find audio recordings in Nigerian English and listen to them. Or you can read newspapers, books and articles that are written in Nigerian or Chinese English. You can also try to meet people who speak Chinese or Nigerian English to hear and copy their accents and vocabulary. Whatever you do, it should be you, the learner who makes the decisions rather than someone else.
TOEIC listening, photographs: A couple walking through the wood |
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Torsten
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| #18 (permalink) Fri Jun 20, 2008 14:10 pm Supporting myths |
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| Quote: |
| Whatever you do, it should be you, the learner who makes the decisions rather than someone else. |
What if your HR department, your boss or your job chooses/demands which standard you will learn, Torsten? |
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Molly
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| #19 (permalink) Fri Jun 20, 2008 15:19 pm Supporting myths |
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If you are happy with their decision, do as they tell you. If not, you should change the job or become your own boss.
TOEIC listening, photographs: At the kindergarten |
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Torsten
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| #20 (permalink) Fri Jun 20, 2008 18:46 pm Supporting myths |
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| Molly wrote: |
| What if your HR department, your boss or your job chooses/demands which standard you will learn, Torsten? |
"Molly", are you suggesting that an HR department, a boss or a company can/will forbid a person to learn more than one variant of English?
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_________________
"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power." ~ Abraham Lincoln |
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Yankee
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| #21 (permalink) Fri Jun 20, 2008 22:50 pm Supporting myths |
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| Yankee wrote: |
"Molly", are you suggesting that an HR department, a boss or a company can/will forbid a person to learn more than one variant of English?
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Nope. I'm suggesting that some business people may not have a choice over which variant they will learn. At the academy where I work as administrator, we get many business clients coming in and saying that their company needs them to learn a certain variant - even though the client would personally prefer to learn another. We also have many many clients whose HR departments want them to learn International English (IE) and no other variant.
If the company wants a certain variant taught, and is shelling out for the course, the businesss English student often has to accept his/her "fate". |
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Molly
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| #22 (permalink) Fri Jun 20, 2008 23:03 pm Supporting myths |
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Who determines what language a person learns? I can't think of any developed country where a business person is forced to learn a certain variant of a language. Sounds a bit like some kind of dictatorship. Also, business people always find ways to learn what they want. Otherwise how would they be able to start and run a business?
TOEIC listening, photographs: Four happy skiers |
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Torsten
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| #23 (permalink) Fri Jun 20, 2008 23:21 pm Supporting myths |
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| Torsten wrote: |
| Sounds a bit like some kind of dictatorship. |
I don't think developed countries have already got rid of dictatorship in many areas. We do have free speech but unfortunately are not free of dictatorship. A boss is a dictator and we have far more bosses than developing countries. |
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Haihao
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| #24 (permalink) Fri Jun 20, 2008 23:33 pm Supporting myths |
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| Quote: |
| I can't think of any developed country where a business person is forced to learn a certain variant of a language. |
Is Spain a developed country in your eyes? Torsten, you speak as if you have real experience of every developed country regarding the language requirements of companies within all those countries. Do you really have such a breadth of experience?
| Quote: |
| Also, business people always find ways to learn what they want. |
Regarding language learning, not always and not often. Many, many business people are much too busy to do much more than attend class maybe, if lucky, 3 hrs per week.
And what I am referring to has nothing to do with dictatorships. Often, companies attempt to set up new business ventures in a number of English speaking countries. Then, the language needs of its staff can change. Staff may have to specialise, expand their present usage into other variants, become multi-dialectal, or just simply learn the variant of the target area they will do business in.
Would you say that this type of note from an HR dept shows that dept. to be a dictatorship?
"To all sales staff, due to our expansion into X country, you will need to become familiar with X variant of English. We have therefore arranged classes, which all are expected to attend." |
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Molly
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| #25 (permalink) Fri Jun 20, 2008 23:48 pm Supporting myths |
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If you run a business you have better time management skills than the average person. You are also better at managing your habits than the average person. Any successful business person will sooner or later figure out how to learn English. They will also understand that "variants of English" are primarily theoretical definitions and that it doesn't matter what "variant of English" you learn. What really counts is how much your English language skills raise your bottom line.
Any successful person who wants to learn English will start listening to English audio sources while they do other things such as eating breakfast, driving their cars or using public transport. Spending 3 hours per week in a room with other learners of English and one native speaker for just a couple of weeks won't get you anywhere and you won't learn much English -- regardless of the "variant of English" your teachers speaks or teaches.
TOEIC listening, photographs: Three kids in the snow |
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Torsten
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| #26 (permalink) Fri Jun 20, 2008 23:52 pm Supporting myths |
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| Quote: |
| Staff may have to specialise, expand their present usage into other variants, become multi-dialectal, or just simply learn the variant of the target area they will do business in. |
I think that's right. Unfortunately "a language in need is a language indeed" in our business world. |
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Haihao
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| #27 (permalink) Fri Jun 20, 2008 23:55 pm Supporting myths |
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| Haihao wrote: |
| I don't think developed countries have already got rid of dictatorship in many areas. We do have free speech but unfortunately are not free of dictatorship. A boss is a dictator and we have far more bosses than developing countries. |
Well, any developed country provides any of its citizens with the infrastructure to start their own business so they won't depend on anyone else. As for learning English, can you show me any developed country where a person would not be allowed or able to listen to any English language audio recording, TV/radio program, read anything in English or talk to anyone in English? Again, it's all down to what you want. If you want to be told what to do, there will always be someone who makes decisions for you. If you want to make your own decisions and learn what you want, nobody can stop you from doing so. If you want to learn Irish English, Scottish English, Californian English or a mix of them all -- nobody can stop you from doing so.
TOEIC listening, photographs: A horse guard parade in London |
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Torsten
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| #28 (permalink) Sat Jun 21, 2008 0:10 am Supporting myths |
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| Torsten wrote: |
If you run a business you have better time management skills than the average person. You are also better at managing your habits than the average person. Any successful business person will sooner or later figure out how to learn English. They will also understand that "variants of English" are primarily theoretical definitions and that it doesn't matter what "variant of English" you learn. What really counts is how much your English language skills raise your bottom line.
Any successful person who wants to learn English will start listening to English audio sources while they do other things such as eating breakfast, driving their cars or using public transport. Spending 3 hours per week in a room with other learners of English and one native speaker for just a couple of weeks won't get you anywhere and you won't learn much English -- regardless of the "variant of English" your teachers speaks or teaches. |
I am sorry but I feel like I have to say your words are full of elitism. I am sure you are a successful business runner having better time management skills and better at managing your habits and living in a more developed country than the average person but I would say you don't have to contempt "the average person' to such a level as if he/she is worth nothing. On the contrary, I have always found the average, the silent majority, not the self-glorifying elite, are the real persons of wisdom. |
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Haihao
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| #29 (permalink) Sat Jun 21, 2008 0:55 am Supporting myths |
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| Quote: |
| Any successful person who wants to learn English will start listening to English audio sources while they do other things such as eating breakfast, driving their cars or using public transport. |
You speak of ideals and I of realities. Tell me, Torsten, do you have kids, a high-pressure job...? And your use of "will" above smacks of should/must.
If you want to be told what to do, there will always be someone who makes decisions for you.
You're right, in a way. In Spain, the ones who make language, and other, training decisions are often called HR managers.
Imagine:
HR manager of a company of 5,000 staff: Torsten, as we discussed, we are planning to send you to India for six months to search out new business opportunities. Thing is, we think you would have an easier time of things if you studied Indian English before you go. So we've arranged intensive classes for you.
Torsten: Don't tell me what to do! If I want to study Indian or any other variant of English, I'll be the one to choose so.
:shock: |
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Molly
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| #30 (permalink) Sat Jun 21, 2008 9:38 am Supporting myths |
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If my company offered me an English course to learn Indian English I would attend it because I would still have plenty of time to listen to my own audio books and recordings. 3 hours per week is not that much. I still could watch NBC, CNN or listen to the BBC, etc.
By the way, can you please post an audio sample of "Indian English" so I get a better of idea of what I would be taught in that English course?
TOEIC listening, photographs: A relaxing drink |
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Torsten
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| Things are hotting up! | John le Carré |
