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 #32 (permalink) Mon Jun 23, 2008 9:27 am Supporting myths |
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Molly, am I right in assuming that there are no audio samples of "standard Indian English" available online? It's seems pretty difficult to learn "Indian English" for somebody who lives outside of India. Also, do you think that there could ever be an English school that would offer something like an "Indian English course"? I mean what you are talking about is a hypothetical situation, isn't it?
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Torsten
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| #33 (permalink) Mon Jun 23, 2008 10:48 am Supporting myths |
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| Torsten wrote: |
| Molly, am I right in assuming that there are no audio samples of "standard Indian English" available online? It's seems pretty difficult to learn "Indian English" for somebody who lives outside of India. Also, do you think that there could ever be an English school that would offer something like an "Indian English course"? I mean what you are talking about is a hypothetical situation, isn't? |
You could try here:
http://accent.gmu.edu/ (I posted this link a few weeks ago. )
http://news.indiainfo.com/
http://www.bl.uk/learning/langlit/sounds/case-studies/minority-ethnic/asian/
| Quote: |
| Also, do you think that there could ever be an English school that would offer something like an "Indian English course"? I mean what you are talking about is a hypothetical situation, isn't? |
I get a sense of "no non-Indian would want to learn Indian English" in your post. Am I right?
Indian English was used as one example of the kind of variants ESLers may begin wanting to learn if motivated by transactional purposes in that direction. Note the "may". |
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Molly
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| #34 (permalink) Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:07 am Supporting myths |
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| Molly wrote: |
Imagine:
HR manager of a company of 5,000 staff: Torsten, as we discussed, we are planning to send you to India for six months to search out new business opportunities. Thing is, we think you would have an easier time of things if you studied Indian English before you go. So we've arranged intensive classes for you. |
So, is the situation you describe just hypothetical or have you actually met or heard of an HR manager who suggested their staff 'study Indian English'?
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Torsten
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| #35 (permalink) Mon Jun 23, 2008 13:10 pm Supporting myths |
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| Quote: |
| So, is the situation you describe just hypothetical or have you actually met or heard of an HR manager who suggested their staff 'study Indian English'? |
Indeed I have. But what has this got to do with you insisting that no business person need be forced to study a language or variant that they do not wish to study? |
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Molly
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| #36 (permalink) Mon Jun 23, 2008 13:18 pm Supporting myths |
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OK, so what you are saying is that you know that some employees of a Spanish company were forced their HR department to study "Indian English" although didn't want to? And by "study Indian English" you mean those employees had to attend a language course where they were taught "Indian English"? You also said that the employees had to attend the course 3 hours a week. For how many weeks did the course run?
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Torsten
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| #37 (permalink) Mon Jun 23, 2008 13:19 pm Supporting myths |
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| Molly wrote: |
| But what has this got to do with you insisting that no business person need be forced to study a language or variant that they do not wish to study? |
I checked what Torsten wrote, but I couldn't find any clues for your assumption. Vague supposition?
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 Ralf
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| #38 (permalink) Mon Jun 23, 2008 15:20 pm Supporting myths |
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| Ralf wrote: |
| Molly wrote: |
| But what has this got to do with you insisting that no business person need be forced to study a language or variant that they do not wish to study? |
I checked what Torsten wrote, but I couldn't find any clues for your assumption. Vague supposition? |
I suppose it depends on your reading of "should" here:
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| Whatever you do, it should be you, the learner who makes the decisions rather than someone else. |
The discussion went on to "not everyone can make such decisions". Did you miss that part, Ralf?
If you want to comment, Ralf, you should at least read the whole thread first:
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| Who determines what language a person learns? I can't think of any developed country where a business person is forced to learn a certain variant of a language. Sounds a bit like some kind of dictatorship. |
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Molly
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| #39 (permalink) Mon Jun 23, 2008 15:36 pm Supporting myths |
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| Molly wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Who determines what language a person learns? I can't think of any developed country where a business person is forced to learn a certain variant of a language. Sounds a bit like some kind of dictatorship. |
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think
| Molly wrote: |
| But what has this got to do with you insisting that no business person need be forced to study a language or variant that they do not wish to study? |
insist
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| #40 (permalink) Mon Jun 23, 2008 20:41 pm Supporting myths |
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| Now where were we? |
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Molly
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| #41 (permalink) Mon Jun 23, 2008 20:43 pm Supporting myths |
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Look up "Pragmatics". |
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Molly
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| #42 (permalink) Tue Jun 24, 2008 6:08 am Supporting myths |
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Hi
I am intrigued by the studying or learning of the version "Indian English".
Do we think you can learn a specific variant?
As a conscious choice, a successfull uptake?
Or is it more arbitary?
What about this Spanish company.
Did they enforce any kind of rules, clauses in the contract on the school, or demand anything from the learners?
Was an Indian speaker of English employed to teach the course?
Could a teacher of a variant different from Indian English teach it?
How realistic is it of a language provider to say they can ensure the teaching and sucessfull learning of a specific variant?
Do we have learners who sound like Jamie K, Ralf, Amy, myself? God help them ; )
It is all well and good arguing the point of teaching certain versions, however as a teacher how far can we determine the uptake from the learners?
Sometimes learners may not even be able to control this.
Native speakers and learners may have a genuine dialect, imitate or the dialect changes due to their environment.
After all I no longer speak with my hometown dialect.
I think there are those native speakers who hold on to their dialect and those that drift away from it, for whatever respective reasons.
So with learners is this more so?
cheers stew.t.
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Stew.t.
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| #43 (permalink) Tue Jun 24, 2008 7:42 am Supporting myths |
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| Quote: |
Do we think you can learn a specific variant?
As a conscious choice, a successfull uptake?
Or is it more arbitary? |
Well, some of our clients want and need to learn American English. They attend classes with teacher who focuses only on that variant and at the end they come out using that variant. So...
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What about this Spanish company.
Did they enforce any kind of rules, clauses in the contract on the school, or demand anything from the learners? |
Many companies do indeed do that. We deal with a lot of HR managers who now feel they are experts in language training. Many such people want to be a part of the planning phase and want continual reports on the progress of the student. If such progress shows a marked departure from the agreed programme, those HR managers get upset, demand adherence to the programme and/or cancel the course. In many modern ESL situations within language academies, it is the HR client who calls the shots.
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| Was an Indian speaker of English employed to teach the course? |
Which course?
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| Could a teacher of a variant different from Indian English teach it? |
Would you feel confident doing so?
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| How realistic is it of a language provider to say they can ensure the teaching and sucessfull learning of a specific variant? |
Not realistic at all, but they still do it - see just how many language training academies use the expression "By the time you finish this course you will be able to..." in their marketing.
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| It is all well and good arguing the point of teaching certain versions, however as a teacher how far can we determine the uptake from the learners? |
I'm assuming you teach British English in the main. It's a version/variant/variety, isn't it? How far can you determine the uptake of that variant from your learners? And, in situations where one is being asked to teach a certain variant, one could advise against it, but, in the end, it is the client who is paying for a service.
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I think there are those native speakers who hold on to their dialect and those that drift away from it, for whatever respective reasons.
So with learners is this more so? |
Yes, that happens quite often, but if one's target at a given moment is the learning, up to whatever point necessary, a certain variant, one would expect to use that variant, without much change or interference from another variant, in the months after the course.
What would you say your "dialect" is at this moment in time and is it the same as the one you teach? |
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Molly
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| #44 (permalink) Tue Jun 24, 2008 10:46 am Supporting myths |
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Hi
Yes I have taught a variant different from my dialect. I worked for a school who taught AE from Beginners to Intermediate as they thought it was easier, and BrE from Intermediate to advanced, as they thought there was better material available.
So I was teaching Zee instead of Zed. No "have got", and less emphasis on present simple for example. As well as vocabulary like Kindergarden.
I can not honestly say if I maintained genuine usage of American English at all times during my lessons.
I would not see the point of ensuring the uptake of my accent by my students, unless they wished it.
My "dialect" is a mix of Chesterfield, North West and maybe a mainland "europeanization". Certainly my vocabulary is an uneven mix. I would say I used to pick up an accent from an area I was in, like Glasgow. However now most, with the exception of Ralf, can not pin point my origins.
Although some may hear my non standard pronunication of "h" , or be able to get a better grasp of a possible region by my frequent use of no probs, cheers, innit and alright.
However it takes a well trained ear, and a good filter system ; )
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Stew.t.
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| #45 (permalink) Tue Jun 24, 2008 11:31 am Supporting myths |
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| Quote: |
| Yes I have taught a variant different from my dialect. I worked for a school who taught AE from Beginners to Intermediate as they thought it was easier, and BrE from Intermediate to advanced, as they thought there was better material available. |
Would you say that most American American-English teachers could do a better job than you did regarding teaching that variant? |
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