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 #47 (permalink) Wed Jun 18, 2008 22:29 pm "However fast you..." vs "No matter how..." |
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| Quote: |
| Here is a random selection of 50 solutions from the 21715 found... |
Note the word "random" there. No information about frequency, which was part of the discussion I was having with Prez. Also, do you imagine that all the other 21665 examples are also written as "cannot"? |
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Molly
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| #48 (permalink) Wed Jun 18, 2008 22:31 pm "However fast you..." vs "No matter how..." |
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The BYU version divides up "cannot" for searching purposes. Cf. the two versions of the first BNC hit:
BYU version: "We get calls from our customers, from receptionists, for example, who can not balance at the end of the shift."
BNC version: "We get calls from our customers, from receptionists, for example, who cannot balance at the end of the shift."
MrP |
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MrPedantic
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| #49 (permalink) Wed Jun 18, 2008 22:38 pm "However fast you..." vs "No matter how..." |
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| Quote: |
BYU version: "We get calls from our customers, from receptionists, for example, who can not balance at the end of the shift."
BNC version: "We get calls from our customers, from receptionists, for example, who cannot balance at the end of the shift." |
How are we to tell that? Maybe the BNC (as you call it) melds "can not" in some instances. :wink: This is interesting though:
cannot - 105
can not - 56588
How are we to know whether the majority 56588 examples of "can not" were originally written as "cannot"?
Source: BYU CORPUS OF AMERICAN ENGLISH
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And how about my other questions?
| Quote: |
Also, could you tell us how to search registers at that link? Which of your examples are from, for example, the Academic register?
Do you imagine that all the other 21665 examples are also written as "cannot"? |
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Molly
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| #50 (permalink) Wed Jun 18, 2008 23:11 pm "However fast you..." vs "No matter how..." |
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We know because a search on "cannot" on the Oxford BNC site is presented as "can not" in the results.
MrP |
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MrPedantic
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| #51 (permalink) Wed Jun 18, 2008 23:26 pm "However fast you..." vs "No matter how..." |
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| MrPedantic wrote: |
We know because a search on "cannot" on the Oxford BNC site is presented as "can not" in the results.
MrP |
Sorry, what was that in reply to? |
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Molly
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| #52 (permalink) Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:45 am Only smoke and mirrors from M |
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| Molly wrote: |
we 're (notice the space)
should n't"
Happy now? |
| Molly wrote: |
| Your knowing it didn't lead you to understand my sha n't search, now did it? |
As we can see from some of your previous posts, you were already aware that the corpora split words for search purposes. I don't think I need to point out that you specifically mentioned can't, do I?
| Molly wrote: |
| What on earth are you talking about, Amy? |
Are we to believe that you have now suddenly forgotten what you had previously posted about the need to split such words when you do a corpus search?
As we can also see from one of the quotes above, you were also already familiar with this site:
http://www.natcorp.ox.ac.uk/
That is the site I used in order to illustrate that a corpus search for 'can not' resulted in 100% of the random samples having the word 'cannot'. Did you bother to look at the link I posted earlier?
Now, that site will only return 50 random samples each time you do a search for "can not". If you do that search enough times, I'm sure you'll eventually be able to turn up a stray "can not" or two on that BNC site. But don't be too disappointed when you repeatedly get results like the ones MrP and I got.
| Molly wrote: |
| How are we to know whether the majority 56588 examples of "can not" were originally written as "cannot"? |
Unfortunately, that may not be possible to find out from the corpora alone. That is why I said that you have to look at the corpora results and samples in more detail. Try doing a little research. For example, you can try googling the context samples that a corpus gives you in order to find the original texts. However, be forewarned:
- Not a single one of the "can not" corpus samples that I tried googling had an exact match on Google. But, when I changed "can not" to "cannot" I hit pay dirt: I was able to find quite a few of the original texts, and thus I can verify for you that "cannot" was in fact the original word used in all of the original texts that I found.
- It is apparently not possible to find the original text for every single corpus example simply by googling it. If you're determined to find all of them, you'll have to find some other method.
It seems your native speaker "husband" must absent at the moment. Surely he would never have allowed you to post such obviously false "scores" for the spelling of cannot.
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Yankee
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| #53 (permalink) Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:55 am "However fast you..." vs "No matter how..." |
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| Quote: |
| As we can see from some of your previous posts, you were already aware that the corpora split words for search purposes. I don't think I need to point out that you specifically mentioned can't, do I? |
So is "cannot" seen as two words by native speakers?
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| Are we to believe that you have now suddenly forgotten what you had previously posted about the need to split such words when you do a corpus search? |
Such words as contractions, is what I said.
| Quote: |
| That is the site I used in order to illustrate that a corpus search for 'can not' resulted in 100% of the random samples having the word 'cannot'. Did you bother to look at the link I posted earlier? |
Indeed I did. It didn't help me discover the spread of "cannot" over Academic, and other "professional writing, registers. It's a limited link if one does not have a subscription to the Oxford BNC.
| Quote: |
| That is why I said that you have to look at the corpora results and samples in more detail. Try doing a little research. For example, you can try googling the context samples that a corpus gives you in order to find the original texts. |
| Quote: |
| If you're determined to find all of them, you'll have to find some other method. |
I'm up for it, but not today.
Yes, I've done that many times in the past and right here. Still, my wider research didn't stop you and Jamie accusing me of omly using the BNC, did it?
The search I did of "cannot" was a lighthearted search in response to prez' lighthearted comments about the dominance of cannot. You are the one who got all upset and serious over this bit of banter between Prez and yours truly. Maybe you need to calm down a little. |
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Molly
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| #54 (permalink) Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:03 am "However fast you..." vs "No matter how..." |
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| Molly wrote: |
| Indeed I did. It didn't help me discover the spread of "cannot" over Academic, and other "professional writing, registers. It's a limited link if one does not have a subscription to the Oxford BNC. |
As I've said three times now, try doing some research. If that's too time-consuming for you, then you may just have to settle for native speaker intuition.
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Yankee
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| #55 (permalink) Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:06 am "However fast you..." vs "No matter how..." |
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| Quote: |
| As I've said three times now, try doing some research. If that's too time-consuming for you, then you may just have to settle for native speaker intuition. |
If your intuition is enough for you, be happy, the rest of of us will take the advice of our best teachers and use many sources. |
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Molly
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| #56 (permalink) Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:10 am "However fast you..." vs "No matter how..." |
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| Molly wrote: |
| Maybe you need to calm down a little. |
I'm perfectly calm -- except for the side-splitting laughter, that is. 
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Yankee
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| #57 (permalink) Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:32 am "However fast you..." vs "No matter how..." |
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| Yankee wrote: |
| Molly wrote: |
| Maybe you need to calm down a little. |
I'm perfectly calm -- except for the side-splitting laughter, that is.
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Great. It's nice to see a happy native now and again. :lol:
On corpora: Let's remember why corpora came about. One of the main reasons was because some people had doubts about the validity and trustworthiness of native intuitions. They are a tool, not yet perfect, to help us check native intuitions. You don't seem to have any need for them, many of us do. We'll get better and better at using them while you ignore our attempts and continue demanding instant expertise.
Be blissful. |
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Molly
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| #58 (permalink) Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:33 am "However fast you..." vs "No matter how..." |
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Now that my laughter has subsided a bit, tell me something, Molly. What exactly are you going to do with all of your "scores" after you find them? What do you expect to achieve by knowing, for example, the spread of "cannot" over Academic, and other "professional writing, registers? What if you ultimately determine that 99.8% of academic writing uses "cannot" rather than
"can not"?
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_________________
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Yankee
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| #59 (permalink) Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:38 am "However fast you..." vs "No matter how..." |
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| Quote: |
| What if you ultimately determine that 99.8% of academic writing uses "cannot" rather than "can not"? |
I'd think before I used "can not" in academic writing. Obvious really, isn't it?
A question for you, Amy:
Let's say that for years, based on you native intuition, you had been telling students that an certain item was not used in a certain registers/text-types/genres. What if, by searching many corpora, you found out that the item in question was actually used and very frequently in such registers/text-types/genres? What would you do? What would be your reaction? |
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Molly
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| #60 (permalink) Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:44 am "However fast you..." vs "No matter how..." |
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And how much less would you think before using "can not" if you had a mere 94%?
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| Difference between 'get sth done' and 'have sth done' | What does 'what' mean? (What with being so busy both at work and and at...) |
