|
|
 Sun Jun 29, 2008 2:21 am What 'variant of English' would you learn? |
|
|
| Molly wrote: | | Quote: | | So what did the other 65.5 non-native teachers say, when you sent them the link? |
If I'd contacted ALL of the teachers we had up till summer recess, they would have said ·don't bother me while I'm on holiday or working in kids' summer camp". |
Are you sure about that? Look:
| Molly wrote: | Because, my friend, the link was attached to an email about reports being handed in late, and, I am the administrator.
...
Do you think I e-mailed 77 teachers by individual e-mail? Or maybe we have a function called "e-teachers", eh? ... Yes, most did report back immediately because "school's out" and teachers are expected to be at home doing reports. They are getting paid to be available.
|
It was an "all teachers" email, about late reports, so the 65.5 must have received it too. And the blighters were expected to be "at home" and "available". That's what they're paid for. So it's all rather mysterious.
I was interested to see by the way that your academy has 5.5 more teachers than the King's College in Madrid, which is apparently one of the biggest schools in Spain (1750+ students). Do you have that many students too?
All the best,
MrP |
|
MrPedantic
I'm here quite often ;-)
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 861
Location: Southern England
|
|
| Sun Jun 29, 2008 9:12 am What 'variant of English' would you learn? |
|
|
| Quote: | | It was an "all teachers" email, about late reports, so the 65.5 must have received it too. And the blighters were expected to be "at home" and "available". That's what they're paid for. So it's all rather mysterious. |
LOL! Mr P, with you, everything is mysterious - even to the extent of you wasting so many pixels and taking up our time with your "Molly obsessed approach to foruming". You need to get IT-cool, Mr P. OUR "all teachers" function is not a fixed thing. It can be altered - e.g. when a teacher joins or leaves us, goes on holiday, etc. Duh, Mr P, get it together.
| Quote: | | I was interested to see by the way that your academy has 5.5 more teachers than the King's College in Madrid, which is apparently one of the biggest schools in Spain (1750+ students). |
How many teachers does The British Council Madrid have? The Brit Council? |
|
Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 2768
|
 |
| Sun Jun 29, 2008 11:38 am What 'variant of English' would you learn? |
|
|
| Molly wrote: | OUR "all teachers" function is not a fixed thing. It can be altered - e.g. when a teacher joins or leaves us, goes on holiday, etc.
|
No one would take 65.5 names off a mailing list simply because those people were on holiday.
Besides, you were sending an "all-teacher" email about late reports; so you would have wanted all the teachers to receive it.
By the way, it's remarkable that 100% of the native speakers were at home, but 76.6% of the non-native speakers were away on holiday. Do you make them take their holidays in shifts?
| Molly wrote: | wasting so many pixels and taking up our time
|
Merely interested. I've never before seen a poster on an ESL forum call 77 remote witnesses in support of his proposition; the logistics intrigues me.
But we can leave it there if you prefer.
MrP |
|
MrPedantic
I'm here quite often ;-)
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 861
Location: Southern England
|
|
| Sun Jun 29, 2008 16:29 pm What 'variant of English' would you learn? |
|
|
| Quote: | | No one would take 65.5 names off a mailing list simply because those people were on holiday. |
Am I your IT trainer, or what? The names are not taken off the list, the system records when teachers are on holiday, off-sick, have left, or any other situation when teachers are not available. We also have 80 of our teachers on permanent contract and the others are "dismissed" every June and "remployed" every September. Those who do not have full-time contracts do not, under normal circumstances, receive e-mail during the summer recess. Next? |
|
Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 2768
|
|
| Sun Jun 29, 2008 17:36 pm What 'variant of English' would you learn? |
|
|
| Molly wrote: | | Quote: | | No one would take 65.5 names off a mailing list simply because those people were on holiday. |
Am I your IT trainer, or what? The names are not taken off the list, the system records when teacher are on holiday, off-sick, have left, or any other situation when teachers are not available. We also have 80 of our teachers on permanent contract and the others are "dismissed" every June and "remployed" every September. Those who do not have full-time contracts do not, under normal circumstances, receive e-mail during the summer recess. Next? |
You have 80 teachers on permanent contract? How many people live in the town where your school is located, if I may ask?
_________________
Test of English as a Foreign Language
TOEFL Preparation & TOEFL Vocabulary
Learn more: How to Become an English Teacher |
|
Ralf
Language Coach
Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 1283
Location: EU (Ireland and Germany)
|
|
| Sun Jun 29, 2008 18:10 pm What 'variant of English' would you learn? |
|
|
| Molly wrote: | Am I your IT trainer, or what?
|
You must forgive me. To you, naturally, the IT set-up would make perfect sense. But in the ordinary world, an ordinary office administrator would not casually post personal files to an intranet (as opposed to a shared drive); and sending out a personal request on the back of an all-staff email would be viewed with some disfavour; and the chances of 77 out of 77 home-based employees responding to such a request within the hour would be remote in the extreme.
(Also, of course, the full process must have amounted to some 40 hours of company time; which makes it quite a costly business.)
Turning to the human set-up:
| Molly wrote: | We also have 80 of our teachers on permanent contract and the others are "dismissed" every June and "remployed" every September.
|
Now I infer from this that my figure for the total number of teachers, based on your figures, was in fact correct; thus 100% of the native teachers were retained, yet c. 75% of the non-native teachers were dismissed.
Is that indeed the case? I find it both counter-intuitive and remarkable; though of course it may be perfectly normal in the world of ESL. Cf.
| Molly wrote: | Most of that 60% [non-native speakers] have been at the academy for a good 7-8 years, most would love to teach higher levels and are, IMO, fully capable of doing so.
...
Believe me, my husband runs a very prestigious language academy here in Spain and he could assure you that there are perfect alternatives even at higher level learning. We call them non-native teachers.
|
Doesn't it strike you as odd?
All the best,
MrP |
|
MrPedantic
I'm here quite often ;-)
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 861
Location: Southern England
|
|
| Sun Jun 29, 2008 18:55 pm What 'variant of English' would you learn? |
|
|
| Ralf wrote: | | You have 80 teachers on permanent contract? How many people live in the town where your school is located, if I may ask? |
Another Perry Mason joins the inquisition.
Ah well, around 354,145 people as of 2006. Next? |
|
Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 2768
|
|
| Sun Jun 29, 2008 19:37 pm What 'variant of English' would you learn? |
|
|
| Molly wrote: | | Ralf wrote: | | You have 80 teachers on permanent contract? How many people live in the town where your school is located, if I may ask? |
Another Perry Mason joins the inquisition.
Ah well, around 354,145 people as of 2006. Next? |
Nothing to worry about. Do you have any estimates as to the number of ESL schools in your town? Here in Leipzig there are probably around half a million people, and some 40 schools.
_________________
Test of English as a Foreign Language
TOEFL Preparation & TOEFL Vocabulary
Learn more: How to Become an English Teacher |
|
Ralf
Language Coach
Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 1283
Location: EU (Ireland and Germany)
|
|
| Sun Jun 29, 2008 19:55 pm What 'variant of English' would you learn? |
|
|
| Quote: | | But in the ordinary world |
I always imagined you living in an ordinary world, Mr P.
| Quote: | | an ordinary office administrator would not casually post personal files to an intranet (as opposed to a shared drive); and sending out a personal request on the back of an all-staff email would be viewed with some disfavour. |
Well, I'm no ordinary administrator, Mr P, I'm the boss' wife. |
|
Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 2768
|
|
| Sun Jun 29, 2008 20:03 pm What 'variant of English' would you learn? |
|
|
| Quote: | | Do you have any estimates as to the number of ESL schools in your town? Here in Leipzig there are probably around half a million people, and some 40 schools. |
I'm not sure how many schools there are, but our academy caters to students in Spain, Greece, Italy, France and Germany. Maybe soon the penny will drop regarding teachers being at home, each teacher having a PC notebook, life beyond face-to-face classes, etc. Hope it does drop for you and Mr P. Then we can move on and SUCH, right? Next? |
|
Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 2768
|
|
| Mon Jun 30, 2008 0:09 am What 'variant of English' would you learn? |
|
|
| Molly wrote: | I'm no ordinary administrator
|
I never for a moment believed you were. But to return to an earlier point: I'm interested in the different treatment of native and non-native teachers, in your institution.
100% of the former have permanent contracts; but 75% of the latter are dismissed in June, and then re-employed in September.
Now elsewhere, you quite reasonably champion non-native teachers:
| Molly wrote: | Believe me, my husband runs a very prestigious language academy here in Spain and he could assure you that there are perfect alternatives even at higher level learning. We call them non-native teachers.
...
Most of that 60% [i.e. the non-native teachers] have been at the academy for a good 7-8 years, most would love to teach higher levels and are, IMO, fully capable of doing so.
|
Fair enough. Yet:
| Molly wrote: | The management board at the academy refuse to allow that 60% to teach higher levels, even though some of that 60% teach higher levels in other academies.
Such contexts are many in the world of ESL/EFL.
|
If your husband owns or runs the academy, and if he thinks that most of the non-native teachers are capable of teaching at a higher level, why doesn't he permit them to do so?
MrP |
|
MrPedantic
I'm here quite often ;-)
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 861
Location: Southern England
|
|
| Mon Jun 30, 2008 0:38 am What 'variant of English' would you learn? |
|
|
| Quote: | | If your husband owns or runs the academy, and if he thinks that most of the non-native teachers are capable of teaching at a higher level, why doesn't he permit them to do so? |
Would you? My husband manages the day-to-day running of the academy and there is also a board of management who decide long-term issues. And the board are often at the whim of the client. Clients often demand to be taught by native teachers.
| Quote: | | 100% of the former have permanent contracts; but 75% of the latter are dismissed in June, and then re-employed in September. |
That the natives English teachers have permanent contracts has nothing to do with academic skills. It's merely that it is easier to get a rental contract for a flat if one has a permanent contract. As most of our nonnative teachers live with family or have a house of their own, and are in the main self-employed, the permanent contract is not offered. |
|
Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 2768
|
|
| Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:16 am What 'variant of English' would you learn? |
|
|
| Molly wrote: | | Clients often demand to be taught by native teachers. |
That would not affect permitting non-native speakers to teach at a higher level, of course.
| Molly wrote: | As most of our nonnative teachers live with family or have a house of their own, and are in the main self-employed, the permanent contract is not offered.
|
That sounds rather odd to me. 75% of the non-native speakers, most of whom have been with you for 7 to 8 years, don't want a permanent contract?
MrP |
|
MrPedantic
I'm here quite often ;-)
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 861
Location: Southern England
|
|
| Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:24 am What 'variant of English' would you learn? |
|
|
| Quote: | | That would not affect permitting non-native speakers to teach at a higher level, of course |
.
It does. What happens at the academy you work for? Do you never follow the wishes and needs of the client?
| Quote: | | That sounds rather odd to me. 75% of the non-native speakers, most of whom have been with you for 7 to 8 years, don't want a permanent contract? |
They may want it, but they don't get it. It's cheaper for academies to use self-employed teachers and to offer temporary contracts. Now, why do you think that is? On the other had, it is sometimes better to offer full-time contracts to native teachers so, as I said earlier, they don't end up living on the streets and in order to keep them year after year. You may be surprised to know that not many native teachers want to live and work in Bilbao, or even in Madrid. Keeping one's teachers can be difficult. The more sweeteners, the better. Most nonnatives are not suddenly going to up and leave. Do you understand?
Mr P, it seems you know very little about the way things work in Spain. Why not sit down for a week, put down on paper all the question you have about working conditions here and then post them all together. I'll try to help you find answers. OK? |
|
Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 2768
|
|
|
| Religious language and religious translation | Directness |
