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 #2 (permalink) Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:04 am Underlying meaning. |
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| I feel "educated English" = an English language level that shows evidence of schooling or training. |
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Haihao
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| #3 (permalink) Mon Jun 23, 2008 3:56 am Underlying meaning. |
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| Haihao wrote: |
| I feel "educated English" = an English language level that shows evidence of schooling or training. |
Yes, this is the correct interpretation of the term. |
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Jamie (K)
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| #4 (permalink) Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:16 am Underlying meaning. |
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| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| Haihao wrote: |
| I feel "educated English" = an English language level that shows evidence of schooling or training. |
Yes, this is the correct interpretation of the term. |
Which still means "the English you learned at school or in training", doesn't it? So in that sense, it is not superior to many other types of English, right? |
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Molly
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| #5 (permalink) Mon Jun 23, 2008 10:38 am Underlying meaning. |
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| Very frankly speaking, dear Molly, there is nothing absolutely superior or inferior in this world. Everyman or everything is created equal, I believe. However, in the common sense when we use the term 'educated English', I would have to say it should refer to a level higher than average, just for the definition of the term and with no offence to those without the opportunity to be educated. |
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Haihao
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| #6 (permalink) Mon Jun 23, 2008 10:47 am Underlying meaning. |
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| Molly wrote: |
| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| Haihao wrote: |
| I feel "educated English" = an English language level that shows evidence of schooling or training. |
Yes, this is the correct interpretation of the term. |
Which still means "the English you learned at school or in training", doesn't it? So in that sense, it is not superior to many other types of English, right? |
Oh, there you go with your "not superior" blather again.
The term "educated English" doesn't mean the English learned in school. It means the English used by a typical educated person. That includes both the English learned at school AND the English that is learned once the person has left school, which is usually more than was learned in school. It differs in style and vocabulary size from the English many people learn outside of school, and yes, it can often be superior in precision and expressive range to English used by people who are uneducated.
I frequently meet uneducated people who can't form a conditional sentence and therefore can't convey the idea of the conditional accurately. Many of them can't express important concepts, because they lack the vocabulary, and sometimes when they lack such vocabulary, they don't even have those concepts in their heads at all. |
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Jamie (K)
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| #7 (permalink) Mon Jun 23, 2008 12:05 pm Underlying meaning. |
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| Quote: |
| I would have to say it should refer to a level higher than average, just for the definition of the term and with no offence to those without the opportunity to be educated. |
I would have to say that it should refer to a higher than average level of usagein the variant in question. I also wonder why it's not called "English in education". |
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Molly
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| #8 (permalink) Mon Jun 23, 2008 12:09 pm Underlying meaning. |
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| Quote: |
| The term "educated English" doesn't mean the English learned in school. It means the English used by a typical educated person. |
Do most "educated people" only use that form which was learned at school or in training then? Are most "educated speakers" mono-dialectal?
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| it can often be superior in precision and expressive range to English used by people who are uneducated. |
Really? Can you give us some examples of such? |
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Molly
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| #9 (permalink) Mon Jun 23, 2008 12:51 pm Underlying meaning. |
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| Molly wrote: |
| Do most "educated people" only use that form which was learned at school or in training then? |
I fail to see the significance of 'only' in your comment. You can use differnt registers, and, depending on your education you have more registers to choose from.
| Molly wrote: |
| Are most "educated speakers" mono-dialectal? |
Are you mono-dialectical because you are informed and shaped by your environment? Why do you have to push every thread into this direction.
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| it can often be superior in precision and expressive range to English used by people who are uneducated |
| Molly wrote: |
| Really? Can you give us some examples of such? |
Again, I fail to understand how one can possibly not see the obvious implication here.
How would you define education, Molly, and to what extent do you think it could be useful?
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 Ralf
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| #10 (permalink) Mon Jun 23, 2008 12:59 pm Underlying meaning. |
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| Quote: |
| You can use differnt registers, and, depending on your education you have more registers to choose from. |
I understand, but do most educated native speakers use only those registers that lie within the bounds of educated English/English learned in education?
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| Are you mono-dialectical because you are informed and shaped by your environment? Why do you have to push every thread into this direction. |
Because it's interesting to me. If you have no interest in the topic of this thread, why are you in it?
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| How would you define education, Molly, and to what extent do you think it could be useful? |
More to the point, how would you define the English that is learned outside state education and training? As uneducated?
And is the term "educated English" more focused on the written form of that language? |
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Molly
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| #11 (permalink) Mon Jun 23, 2008 13:14 pm Underlying meaning. |
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| Molly wrote: |
| More to the point, how would you define the English that is learned outside state education and training? As uneducated? |
I'd simply call it sociolect and idiolect. Education helps evening out expressive shortcomings. Jamie mentioned conditional clauses, and I think that's a good example. I heard a shopkeeper say "Had I had that paper I wasn't such a happy man." I asked him what he meant, but all he did was repeat what he'd just said.
| Molly wrote: |
| And is the term "educated English" more focused on the written form of that language? |
Both. There are educated authors or speakers, and then there are people buying books like 'How to express yourself better' and 'Letter writing for dummies'.
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| #12 (permalink) Mon Jun 23, 2008 13:31 pm Underlying meaning. |
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| Molly wrote: |
| Quote: |
| The term "educated English" doesn't mean the English learned in school. It means the English used by a typical educated person. |
Do most "educated people" only use that form which was learned at school or in training then? Are most "educated speakers" mono-dialectal? |
First you ask a leading question that you think will result in a certain specific answer. You don't get exactly the answer you want, so you twist your interpretation of the answer and continue asking questions as if we had given you the answer you expected, the answer you'd hoped you could start a fight with. Then you ask for "examples of such", "such" meaning the thing you expected us to refer to in our answer but that we didn't.
Don't you start finding this game tiresome after playing it in thread after thread? |
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Jamie (K)
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| #13 (permalink) Mon Jun 23, 2008 15:11 pm Underlying meaning. |
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| Ralf, why are you on/in this thread? Seems it's you who has come for a fight. If you have more interest in me than you do in the topic, why not ask me out for date? |
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Molly
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| #14 (permalink) Mon Jun 23, 2008 15:14 pm Underlying meaning. |
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| Quote: |
| Both. There are educated authors or speakers, and then there are people buying books like 'How to express yourself better' and 'Letter writing for dummies'. |
Why is it then that it is literacy that is prime in most state schools? Oracy is hardly tested.
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| Education helps evening out expressive shortcomings. |
I see you do want an evening out with me.  You're paying?
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| I heard a shopkeeper say "Had I had that paper I wasn't such a happy man." I asked him what he meant, but all he did was repeat what he'd just said. |
Do you think others may have understood him? |
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Molly
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| #15 (permalink) Mon Jun 23, 2008 15:21 pm Underlying meaning. |
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| Molly wrote: |
| Ralf, why are you on/in this thread? Seems it's you who has come for a fight. |
I did care to answer, Molly.
| Quote: |
| I'd simply call it sociolect and idiolect. Education helps evening out expressive shortcomings. Jamie mentioned conditional clauses, and I think that's a good example. I heard a shopkeeper say "Had I had that paper I wasn't such a happy man." I asked him what he meant, but all he did was repeat what he'd just said. |
| Quote: |
| Both. There are educated authors or speakers, and then there are people buying books like 'How to express yourself better' and 'Letter writing for dummies'. |
Jamie's observation is quite accurate:
| Quote: |
| First you ask a leading question that you think will result in a certain specific answer. You don't get exactly the answer you want, so you twist your interpretation of the answer and continue asking questions as if we had given you the answer you expected, the answer you'd hoped you could start a fight with. Then you ask for "examples of such", "such" meaning the thing you expected us to refer to in our answer but that we didn't. |
| Molly wrote: |
| If you have more interest in me than you do in the topic, why not ask me out for date? |
Because I've seen the film The Crying Game.
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