|
|
 #2 (permalink) Mon Jun 23, 2008 3:59 am Idiom: As black as Newgate's knocker |
|
|
I've never heard it in my life, although of course I understand it. I'd just have no idea what Newgate's knocker is supposed to be.
An explanation of the term is here:
http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/36500.html |
|
Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 6737
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
|
|
| #3 (permalink) Mon Jun 23, 2008 17:02 pm Idiom: As black as Newgate's knocker |
|
|
| Haihao wrote: |
Hi,
Could I suppose "Newgate's knocker" in "As black as Newgate's knocker" is or was very black? Is this idiom still in circulation, say, in UK?
Thank you!
Haihao |
Hi Haihao,
It's the first time I hear this idiom, but it makes sense. A 'knocker' is a knock-out punch or a woman's breast (usually big enough to knock you out). Newgate could be anybody (Smith, O'Sullivan's nephew, David when he fought Goliath), and his punch probably causes black eyes.
I thought I'd also heard the expression in baseball before, and here's what I found.
_________________
Test of English as a Foreign Language
TOEFL Preparation & TOEFL Vocabulary
Learn more: How to Become an English Teacher |
|
 Ralf
Language Coach
Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 1751
Location: the world
|
 |
| #4 (permalink) Mon Jun 23, 2008 18:38 pm Idiom: As black as Newgate's knocker |
|
|
| Now, see, I would have assumed it was the thing on the door that you raise and lower in order to knock. Isn't there a lot of coal there? Or am I thinking of New Castle? If I'm right about the coal, then their hands would be quite dark from handling the coal, so the things that were handled would be black too. Is that even remotely possible? |
|
Barb_D
I'm here quite often ;-)
Joined: 13 Jun 2008
Posts: 474
|
|
| #5 (permalink) Mon Jun 23, 2008 18:55 pm Idiom: As black as Newgate's knocker |
|
|
| Barb_D wrote: |
| Isn't there a lot of coal there? Or am I thinking of New Castle? |
ROTFL :lol:
Exactly the same sort of confusion hit me, Barb! I knew there was some sort of idiom with "New" and "coal", but initially couldn't come up with "Newcastle".
At any rate, I'm not familiar with the "Newgate" idiom either, but Ms Google did find this for me:
http://www.panicattack.org.uk/aztour/02.html
.
_________________
"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power." ~ Abraham Lincoln |
|
Yankee
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 16 Apr 2006
Posts: 8325
Location: USA
|
|
| #6 (permalink) Mon Jun 23, 2008 19:17 pm Idiom: As black as Newgate's knocker |
|
|
| Yankee wrote: |
| Barb_D wrote: |
| Isn't there a lot of coal there? Or am I thinking of New Castle? |
ROTFL :lol:
Exactly the same sort of confusion hit me, Barb! I knew there was some sort of idiom with "New" and "coal", but initially couldn't come up with "Newcastle".
At any rate, I'm not familiar with the "Newgate" idiom either, but Ms Google did find this for me:
http://www.panicattack.org.uk/aztour/02.html
. |
That's amazing! Knock on wood, there's doorbells these days :P
_________________
Test of English as a Foreign Language
TOEFL Preparation & TOEFL Vocabulary
Learn more: How to Become an English Teacher |
|
Ralf
Language Coach
Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 1751
Location: the world
|
|
| #7 (permalink) Mon Jun 23, 2008 19:41 pm Idiom: As black as Newgate's knocker |
|
|
Funny you should mention that, Ralf. We don't have a knocker or a doorbell. So, people literally have to knock directly on the door. That can sometimes be tough to hear, though. Fortunately, we have installed something even better than a knocker or a doorbell for alerting us that there are visitors at the door. It's known as a "dog". :mrgreen:
.
_________________
"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power." ~ Abraham Lincoln |
|
Yankee
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 16 Apr 2006
Posts: 8325
Location: USA
|
|
| #8 (permalink) Mon Jun 23, 2008 20:13 pm Idiom: As black as Newgate's knocker |
|
|
Okay, well at least I had the right type of knocker and knew it wasn't a woman's boob!
I have found several models of "dog" to be an effective visitor detection device.
I like New Castle Brown Ale. DOes that count for anything? |
|
Barb_D
I'm here quite often ;-)
Joined: 13 Jun 2008
Posts: 474
|
|
|
Ralf
Language Coach
Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 1751
Location: the world
|
|
| #10 (permalink) Mon Jun 23, 2008 21:39 pm Idiom: As black as Newgate's knocker |
|
|
"As black as Newgate's knocker" can still sometimes be heard in the UK; though mostly from people in their 70s or over, from the London area. Sometimes it's transformed into something like "Noogie's knocker"; it tends to turn up in a Cockney or East London accent.
I would say (tentatively) that "as black as N's k." can have implications of grimness; while its more popular rival "as black as the Ace of Spades" tends to refer only to colour.
A "Newgate knocker" was also a kind of lovelock, popular among street traders, etc. in the 19th century.
MrP |
|
MrPedantic
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 1326
Location: Southern England
|
|
| #11 (permalink) Mon Jun 23, 2008 21:49 pm Idiom: As black as Newgate's knocker |
|
|
| MrPedantic wrote: |
"As black as Newgate's knocker" can still sometimes be heard in the UK; though mostly from people in their 70s or over, from the London area. Sometimes it's transformed into something like "Noogie's knocker"; it tends to turn up in a Cockney or East London accent.
I would say (tentatively) that "as black as N's k." can have implications of grimness; while its more popular rival "as black as the Ace of Spades" tends to refer only to colour.
A "Newgate knocker" was also a kind of lovelock, popular among street traders, etc. in the 19th century.
MrP |
I did some googling for the knocker phrase and got 206 hits. The Phrase Finder provides us with quite a few as black as... phrases, but the most common 'as black as coal' simile is not among them.
_________________
Test of English as a Foreign Language
TOEFL Preparation & TOEFL Vocabulary
Learn more: How to Become an English Teacher |
|
Ralf
Language Coach
Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 1751
Location: the world
|
|
| #12 (permalink) Mon Jun 23, 2008 21:59 pm Idiom: As black as Newgate's knocker |
|
|
| Yankee wrote: |
Funny you should mention that, Ralf. We don't have a knocker or a doorbell. So, people literally have to knock directly on the door. That can sometimes be tough to hear, though. Fortunately, we have installed something even better than a knocker or a doorbell for alerting us that there are visitors at the door. It's known as a "dog". :mrgreen:
. |
Hi Amy,
I'm a big Martin Scorsese fan, and I recently watched his fameless/nonfamous debut Who's that knocking at my Door. Ever seen it?
_________________
Test of English as a Foreign Language
TOEFL Preparation & TOEFL Vocabulary
Learn more: How to Become an English Teacher |
|
Ralf
Language Coach
Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 1751
Location: the world
|
|
| #13 (permalink) Tue Jun 24, 2008 0:58 am Idiom: As black as Newgate's knocker |
|
|
Thank you all!
Just a few more I would appreciate it if you could shed some light on:
1. As black as thunder. Is it because the sky becomes dark or black when a thunder is produced?
2. As black as your hat. What kind of hat? A cowboy's?
Thank you!
Haihao |
|
Haihao
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 26 Oct 2006
Posts: 2471
Location: Japan
|
|
| #14 (permalink) Tue Jun 24, 2008 10:10 am Idiom: As black as Newgate's knocker |
|
|
Hi Haihao
| Haihao wrote: |
| 1. As black as thunder. Is it because the sky becomes dark or black when a thunder is produced? |
I imagine that probably has something to do with it.
| Haihao wrote: |
| 2. As black as your hat. What kind of hat? A cowboy's? |
That's another expression I'm not familiar with. Somehow I seriously doubt there is a connection with a cowboy hat. It would seem more likely to be a reference to a top hat:
http://images.google.com/images?um=1&hl=en&q=top+hat&btnG=Search+Images
.
_________________
"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power." ~ Abraham Lincoln |
|
Yankee
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 16 Apr 2006
Posts: 8325
Location: USA
|
|
| #15 (permalink) Tue Jun 24, 2008 10:52 am Idiom: As black as Newgate's knocker |
|
|
| Thank you Amy again, indeed. |
|
Haihao
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 26 Oct 2006
Posts: 2471
Location: Japan
|
|
|
| tough luck | the Craftsman pliers is a hardware tool or the craftsman pliers are... |
