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 #17 (permalink) Thu Jul 03, 2008 8:09 am Possessing "correct"? |
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| I made the statement because I couldn't think of a non-standard context in which the word "correct" had relevance. |
So are you saying that "correct" cannot, in your use of the word, be applied to non-standard forms? If that's what you're saying, why are you saying it?
Anyway, let's humour you and give you an example.
The correct way to say "Where are you?" in Newfoundland English , for example, would be "Where ya to?", as far as I understand. If I were to say "Where to ya?" in that context, I'd be using the expression incorrectly, right? Someone would be justified if he said to me "No, that's incorrect. The correct form is...", wouldn't he?
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Another example.
"Yous guys are all wrong" is what you would call non/sub-standard, right? But the people who use it in context would feel it's the correct form to use in their social context, right? It's correct uasge for that context, isn't it? |
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Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
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| #18 (permalink) Thu Jul 03, 2008 10:23 am Possessing "correct"? |
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| I made the statement because I couldn't think of a non-standard context in which the word "correct" had relevance. |
Can you think of a non-standard context in which the word "incorrect" has relevance? |
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Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017
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| #19 (permalink) Thu Jul 03, 2008 21:56 pm Possessing "correct"? |
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You misunderstand the meaning of "correct", in the context of standard English, and the meaning of "relevance", in the context of my reply.
I notice you've posted this question on various sites; but of the replies I've seen so far, this one, by Forbes at English Forums, is the best:
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The real point of course is that when speaking a non-standard variety one is not troubled with notions of correctness.
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(Forbes is an astute character.)
MrP |
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MrPedantic
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Location: Southern England
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| #20 (permalink) Thu Jul 03, 2008 23:17 pm Possessing "correct"? |
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| Quote: |
| (Forbes is an astute character.) |
If incorrect, there.
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| You misunderstand the meaning of "correct", in the context of standard English, and the meaning of "relevance", in the context of my reply. |
Well I have asked many times you to explain. Please, tell us the meaning of "correct" and of "relevance" that you are using and how these fit together with your statement here.
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| I'm not sure the word "correct" has any relevance, beyond the context of standard forms of English. |
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Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017
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| #21 (permalink) Thu Jul 03, 2008 23:58 pm Possessing "correct"? |
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"Correctness" is the measure of conformity to a standard.
If you apply "correctness" in the context of non-standard English, you are then dividing non-standard English into "standard non-standard English" and "non-standard non-standard English", which is plainly absurd.
(I'm not sure why it worries you, by the way; unless you still retain the notion that "correct" English means "intrinsically better" English.)
MrP |
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MrPedantic
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 1319
Location: Southern England
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| #22 (permalink) Fri Jul 04, 2008 8:05 am Possessing "correct"? |
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"Correctness" is the measure of conformity to a standard.
Are you saying that linguistic standards do not exist outside the thing that you call standard English?
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| If you apply "correctness" in the context of non-standard English, you are then dividing non-standard English into "standard non-standard English" and "non-standard non-standard English", which is plainly absurd. |
Not at all. Most of those who speak the English which you call non-standard don't normally use the term in reference to their own English. I've never heard anyone say "I speak non-standard English", but I've heard a lot of folks say "I speak standard English". What you are doing is attempting to possess and limit the word "correct". Their are standards outside your idea of "standard" and correctness exists outside your idea of "correctness". So, only in your mind could something called "standard non-standard English" exist. Only from your sociopolitical view of language use could "non-standard non-standard English" exist.
In the world of those who speak the English which you call non-standard, what exists is this is our standard while Mr P's standard and other people's standards are exactly that, "other".
So, you would, if honest, need to adjust your statement to:
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| I'm not sure the word "correct", as used by prescriptivists and Standard English speakers, has any relevance, beyond the context of standard forms of English. |
To do otherwise is to try to possess and limit a word belonging to all of us.
And this one:
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Old, pull-the-wool, Mr P: "Correctness" is the measure of conformity to a standard.
Reformed, more honest, Mr P: "Correctness", as I use it, is the measure of conformity to the standard of Standard English. |
So, tell us do, if a speaker of Newfoundland English were to correct someone who said "Where to ya?" instead of "Where ya to?", would he be telling them what is correct by the standards of Newfoundland English? |
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Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017
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| #23 (permalink) Sat Jul 05, 2008 0:35 am Possessing "correct"? |
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Steady, old thing. It's only a webpage.
Now here are the two statements again:
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I'm not sure the word "correct" has any relevance, beyond the context of standard forms of English.
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The real point of course is that when speaking a non-standard variety one is not troubled with notions of correctness.
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Two questions:
1. How can a statement that the word "correct" has no "relevance" beyond the context of standard English be construed as a "prescriptivist" approach to non-standard forms?
2. If X says that the idea of "non-standard non-standard English" is "plainly absurd", by what curious logic can Y claim that "only from X's sociopolitical view of language use could non-standard non-standard English exist"?
Two clues:
1. What do millions of native speakers do every day, at home or at work, in the standard forms of their languages?
2. What do millions of native speakers not do every day, at home or at work, in the non-standard forms of their languages?
Extra clue:
3. It relates to the word "correct".
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MrPedantic
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 1319
Location: Southern England
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| #24 (permalink) Sat Jul 05, 2008 20:32 pm Possessing "correct"? |
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| Steady, old thing. It's only a webpage. |
Back to your patronising ways, eh?
Lets' see the original dialogue:
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Rusty: When you ask if something is correct, by what standard do you expect an answer, if not standard English?
Bridget: By the "standard" you think it comes from.
Mr P: I'm not sure the word "correct" has any relevance, beyond the context of standard forms of English. |
How do you understand my meaning of "correct" there? |
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Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017
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| #25 (permalink) Sat Jul 05, 2008 22:47 pm Possessing "correct"? |
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That's a little selective. Here is the full version:
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M: [posts two versions of a sentence] Which is correct and why?
Pete: Actually, neither of the given choices is standard English.
M: Who mentioned standard English? I didn't.
Rusty: When you ask if something is correct, by what standard do you expect an answer, if not standard English?
M: By the "standard" you think it comes from.
MrP: I would agree with Rusty's analysis; I'm not sure the word "correct" has any relevance, beyond the context of standard forms of English. Beyond standard English, you might hear either of the original sentences in a regional form of BrE, etc.
M: What a strange comment. Why can't we talk about things being correct in non-standard forms?
Rusty: What meaning/definition would [you] give to "correct" in the context of non-standard language forms?
M: Not incorrect. How about you?
Rusty: I'd just call it non-standard.
MrP: Can you provide an example of how you would use "correct" in the context of a non-standard form?
M: <silence>
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Rusty, like Forbes, is clearly an astute respondent.
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How do you understand my meaning of "correct" there?
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"Correctness" is a property of the standard form of a language. If you read the first chapter of your favourite grammar very carefully, you will understand why:
| The linguists (squat and packed with guile) in Cambridge wrote: |
In these countries there is a high degree of consensus about the appropriate variety of English to use. The consensus is confirmed by the decisions of broadcasting authorities about the kind of English that will be used for public information announcements, newscasts, commentaries to broadcasts of national events such as state funerals, and so on. It is confirmed by the writing found in magazines, newspapers, novels, and non-fiction books; by the editing and correcting that is done by the publishers of these; and by the way writers for the most part accept such editing and correcting of their work.
This is not to say that controversy cannot arise about points of grammar or usage. There is much dispute, and that is precisely the subject matter for prescriptive usage manuals.
Nonetheless, the controversy about particular points stands out against a backdrop
of remarkably widespread agreement about how sentences should be constructed for
such purposes as publication, political communication, or government broadcasting.
This widespread agreement defines what we are calling Standard English.
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MrP |
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MrPedantic
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 1319
Location: Southern England
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| #26 (permalink) Sat Jul 05, 2008 23:26 pm Possessing "correct"? |
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MrP: Can you provide an example of how you would use "correct" in the context of a non-standard form?
M: <silence>
Silence? Did you read this?
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| The correct way to say "Where are you?" in Newfoundland English , for example, would be "Where ya to?", as far as I understand. If I were to say "Where to ya?" in that context, I'd be using the expression incorrectly, right? Someone would be justified if he said to me "No, that's incorrect. The correct form is...", wouldn't he? |
"Correctness" is a property of the standard form of a language.
I think you might find that the word is not to be possessed, however much you may want it to be.
Molly wrote and asked: (The correct way to say "Where are you?" in Newfoundland English , for example, would be "Where ya to?", as far as I understand.) If I were to say "Where to ya?" in that context, I'd be using the expression incorrectly, right? Someone would be justified if he said to me "No, that's incorrect. The correct form is...", wouldn't he?
Mr P: <silence> |
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Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017
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| #27 (permalink) Sat Jul 05, 2008 23:33 pm Possessing "correct"? |
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| Molly wrote: |
M: <silence>
Silence? Did you read this?
etc.
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We were discussing the dialogue that took place at English Page. There you maintained a discreet silence.
MrP |
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MrPedantic
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 1319
Location: Southern England
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| #28 (permalink) Sat Jul 05, 2008 23:34 pm Possessing "correct"? |
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Nonetheless, the controversy about particular points stands out against a backdrop
of remarkably widespread agreement about how sentences should be constructed for
such purposes as publication, political communication, or government broadcasting. |
Do these sound like examples from publications, political communication, or government broadcasting?
Them looking after the kids was a great help.
Them looking after the kids were a great help. |
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Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017
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| #29 (permalink) Sat Jul 05, 2008 23:37 pm Possessing "correct"? |
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| MrPedantic wrote: |
We were discussing the dialogue that took place at English Page. There you maintained a discreet silence.
MrP |
Hey, note:
Molly: Why can't we talk about things being correct in non-standard forms?
Mr P: <silence> |
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Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017
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| #30 (permalink) Sat Jul 05, 2008 23:53 pm Possessing "correct"? |
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| Molly wrote: |
Someone would be justified if he said to me "No, that's incorrect. The correct form is...", wouldn't he?
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I know nothing at all about Newfoundland English or its status; and your "as far as I understand" doesn't fill me with confidence that you know any more than I do.
Try again with a non-standard form we both know.
| Molly wrote: |
I think you might find that the word is not to be possessed, however much you may want it to be.
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I shall have to learn to live with the disappointment.
MrP |
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MrPedantic
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 1319
Location: Southern England
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