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 #32 (permalink) Sun Jul 06, 2008 0:01 am Possessing "correct"? |
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| Molly wrote: |
Do these sound like examples from publications, political communication, or government broadcasting?
Them looking after the kids was a great help.
Them looking after the kids were a great help. |
You have forgotten that at English Page you post in the guise of a non-native speaker.
So why should Rusty and Pete assume that you know those examples aren't standard English?
MrP |
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MrPedantic
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 1319
Location: Southern England
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| #33 (permalink) Sun Jul 06, 2008 0:11 am Possessing "correct"? |
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| MrPedantic wrote: |
| Molly wrote: |
Do these sound like examples from publications, political communication, or government broadcasting?
Them looking after the kids was a great help.
Them looking after the kids were a great help. |
You have forgotten that at English Page you post in the guise of a non-native speaker.
So why should Rusty and Pete assume that you know those examples aren't standard English?
MrP |
OK. Name a few non-standard forms you are familiar with and we'll see if I can help you. |
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Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017
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| #34 (permalink) Sun Jul 06, 2008 0:55 am Possessing "correct"? |
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| Molly wrote: |
| OK. Name a few non-standard forms you are familiar with |
Classic London cabbie?
New Cross Gate muggerese?
The idiolect of Graham Taylor?
| The Mollies wrote: |
and we'll see if I can help you.
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Yes, please do.
MrP |
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MrPedantic
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 1319
Location: Southern England
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| #35 (permalink) Sun Jul 06, 2008 6:56 am Possessing "correct"? |
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| Quote: |
Classic London cabbie?
New Cross Gate muggerese?
The idiolect of Graham Taylor? |
Try again with a non-standard form we both know.
This could go on forever, Mr P.
How about this?
Imagine, in non-standard form X, this was used:
"Where ya to?" (where the standard form would use "Where are you?"). If a visitor to the area or a very young local child were to say "Where to ya?, when wanting to mean ""Where ya to?", would an adult speaker of non-standard form X be justified in saying "No, that's incorrect. The correct form is..."? If not, which word would speaker of non-standard form X need to use? |
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Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017
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| #36 (permalink) Sun Jul 06, 2008 10:48 am Possessing "correct"? |
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To preserve:
| Molly wrote: |
| MrPedantic wrote: |
| Molly wrote: |
Do these sound like examples from publications, political communication, or government broadcasting?
Them looking after the kids was a great help.
Them looking after the kids were a great help. |
You have forgotten that at English Page you post in the guise of a non-native speaker.
So why should Rusty and Pete assume that you know those examples aren't standard English?
MrP |
OK. Name a few non-standard forms you are familiar with and we'll see if I can help you. |
MrP |
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MrPedantic
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 1319
Location: Southern England
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| #37 (permalink) Sun Jul 06, 2008 12:50 pm Possessing "correct"? |
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| Molly wrote: |
| Imagine, in non-standard form X, this was used: |
No; a hypothesis won't do. The point of my comment was that in the real world the relationship between standard English and non-standard English is asymmetrical.
This is because standard English is a subset of the possible forms, selected by consensus: when someone says that a phrase is "correct", it means that a particular form belongs to that subset. The word therefore describes a one-way relationship between a form in use and the subset.
Take these two sentences:
1. I ain't got nowhere to go.
2. I don't have anywhere to go.
In standard English, #1 is "incorrect", and #2 is "correct". However, the inverse relationship between the form and the subset does not apply; it would not make sense to say:
| Quote: |
1. I ain't got nowhere to go.
2. I don't have anywhere to go.
In non-standard English, #1 is correct, and #2 is incorrect. |
#1 is simply "non-standard". Or as Forbes put it, "The real point of course is that when speaking a non-standard variety one is not troubled with notions of correctness."
Cf.
3. Cat the yellow is.
4. He has a cat in his throat. ("Il a un chat dans la gorge.")
Here, the notion of "correctness" is irrelevant: #3 is ungrammatical, while #4 is grammatical but unidiomatic.
MrP |
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MrPedantic
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 1319
Location: Southern England
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| #38 (permalink) Sun Jul 06, 2008 17:46 pm Possessing "correct"? |
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| Quote: |
| This is because standard English is a subset of the possible forms, selected by consensus: when someone says that a phrase is "correct", it means that a particular form belongs to that subset. |
So, in the days before standard English it was impossible to talk about language as correct or incorrect, right?
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| selected by consensus |
Whose consensus?
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| "The real point of course is that when speaking a non-standard variety one is not troubled with notions of correctness." |
You've yet to provide proof of that. Ask a Cockney whether he/she is concerned that Cockney is used correctly or not. |
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Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017
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| #39 (permalink) Sun Jul 06, 2008 22:11 pm Possessing "correct"? |
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| Am I right in thinking that the use of the word "correct" by standard English speakers can be classed as a lay view of language? |
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Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017
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| #40 (permalink) Sun Jul 06, 2008 23:34 pm Possessing "correct"? |
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| Molly wrote: |
So, in the days before standard English it was impossible to talk about language as correct or incorrect, right?
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Questions of style, grammar, and idiom have always been discussed. But "correctness" pertains to standard forms of a language.
| Molly wrote: |
| Quote: |
| selected by consensus |
Whose consensus?
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The consensus of those who agree what standard English is, of course.
(See the passage I quoted above from the CGEL.)
| Molly wrote: |
| Quote: |
| "The real point of course is that when speaking a non-standard variety one is not troubled with notions of correctness." |
You've yet to provide proof of that. Ask a Cockney whether he/she is concerned that Cockney is used correctly or not. |
Do you have an example of "Cockney used incorrectly"?
MrP |
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MrPedantic
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 1319
Location: Southern England
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| #41 (permalink) Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:01 am Possessing "correct"? |
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| Quote: |
| But "correctness" pertains to standard forms of a language. |
Was the word invented by standardists?
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| Do you have an example of "Cockney used incorrectly"? |
Do you doubt that Cockneys have such? Try Hollywood. |
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Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017
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| #42 (permalink) Tue Jul 08, 2008 0:22 am Possessing "correct"? |
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| Molly wrote: |
| Quote: |
| But "correctness" pertains to standard forms of a language. |
Was the word invented by standardists?
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The word "correct" has a particular meaning, in relation to standard English. Naturally it means other things too, in other contexts.
| Molly wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Do you have an example of "Cockney used incorrectly"? |
Do you doubt that Cockneys have such? Try Hollywood.
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If you're unable to find examples to support your argument, I'm not sure I'm obliged to do so.
But in any case, I expect you're thinking of "incongruities", rather than "Cockney used incorrectly".
MrP |
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MrPedantic
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 1319
Location: Southern England
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| #43 (permalink) Tue Jul 08, 2008 1:04 am Possessing "correct"? |
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The word "correct" has a particular meaning, in relation to standard English. Naturally it means other things too, in other contexts.
Yes, we've established that, but I think you went wrong when you misinterpreted this use of "correct":
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Which is correct and why?
Them looking after the kids was a great help.
Them looking after the kids were a great help. |
| Quote: |
| If you're unable to find examples to support your argument, I'm not sure I'm obliged to do so. |
If you're unable to find proof to support "your" argument, I'm not sure I'm obliged to do so:
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| when speaking a non-standard variety one is not troubled with notions of correctness. |
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Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017
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| #44 (permalink) Tue Jul 08, 2008 1:09 am Possessing "correct"? |
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| Molly wrote: |
I think you went wrong when you misinterpreted this use of "correct":
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Which is correct and why?
Them looking after the kids was a great help.
Them looking after the kids were a great help. |
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Present your intended meaning, in that case.
MrP |
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MrPedantic
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 1319
Location: Southern England
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| #45 (permalink) Tue Jul 08, 2008 23:26 pm Possessing "correct"? |
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| Quote: |
| Present your intended meaning, in that case. |
Isn't this clear enough for you?
| Quote: |
| Which is correct and why? |
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Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017
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