|
|
 Fri Jul 04, 2008 12:46 pm Expression: "Nobody said he didn't want cake." |
|
|
| Very different. |
|
Haihao
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 26 Oct 2006
Posts: 1307
Location: Japan
|
|
| Fri Jul 04, 2008 13:10 pm Expression: "Nobody said he didn't want cake." |
|
|
"Nobody said he wanted cake." = It looks like nobody wants cake, so don't serve any.
"Nobody said he didn't want cake." = I didn't hear anyone object to having cake, so it's okay to serve it. |
|
Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 4227
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
|
 |
| Fri Jul 04, 2008 13:13 pm Expression: "Nobody said he didn't want cake." |
|
|
I think you need to use the gender-neutral pronoun "they" instead of "he"  |
|
lost_soul
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 15 Sep 2006
Posts: 1740
Location: South Park, Colorado, USA
|
|
| Fri Jul 04, 2008 14:59 pm Expression: "Nobody said he didn't want cake." |
|
|
| Quote: | | "Nobody said he wanted cake." = It looks like nobody wants cake, so don't serve any. |
Jamie,
If a native speaker said that, would you interpret it the same way you did here?
When I saw this sentence, I thought he didn't refer to nobody.
I thought he was another person and nobody said that the person wanted cake.
_________________
Non-native speaker of English
=================================
If you saw a heat wave, would you wave back? |
|
daemon99
I'm here quite often ;-)
Joined: 21 Feb 2008
Posts: 326
|
|
| Fri Jul 04, 2008 15:03 pm Expression: "Nobody said he didn't want cake." |
|
|
| I AM a native speaker, and that's how I interpret it. |
|
Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 4227
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
|
|
| Fri Jul 04, 2008 15:29 pm Expression: "Nobody said he didn't want cake." |
|
|
| Quote: | | I AM a native speaker, and that's how I interpret it. |
I know you ARE a native speaker, Jamie.
I thought a native speaker would normally say, "Nobody said they wanted cake".
So, when I saw the sentence, "Nobody said he wanted cake", it looked a little weird to me.
That's why I asked how you would interpret it.
_________________
Non-native speaker of English
=================================
If you saw a heat wave, would you wave back? |
|
daemon99
I'm here quite often ;-)
Joined: 21 Feb 2008
Posts: 326
|
|
| Fri Jul 04, 2008 15:33 pm Expression: "Nobody said he didn't want cake." |
|
|
| "Nobody said they wanted cake," is spoken colloquial English, but it's still not considered proper written grammar in North America, so I was old fashioned and used "he" for the generic pronoun. |
|
Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 4227
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
|
|
| Fri Jul 04, 2008 17:28 pm Expression: "Nobody said he didn't want cake." |
|
|
| Tom wrote: | Would you say that the following sentences are correct yes and natural yes and carry different meanings? yes
| Quote: | Nobody said he didn't want cake.
Nobody said he wanted cake. |
|
Hi Tom
When I read your sentences, I assumed that 'he' referred to one particular man (or boy). This would be both a current way and also an "old-fashioned" way to interpret the use of 'he' in your sentences:
- Nobody said he didn't want cake. = Nobody said this: "He doesn't want cake."
- Nobody said he wanted cake. = Nobody said this: "He wants cake."
.
.
Interpreting 'he' to refer back to all of the people included by the word 'nobody' is also possible, but would change the meaning, of course:
- Nobody said he didn't want cake. = Nobody said this: "I don't want cake."
- Nobody said he wanted cake. = Nobody said this: "I want cake."
.
.
I have a feeling, though, that you were not focusing on the use of 'he'. Am I right? 
.
_________________
Amy
.
ESL teacher, translator, and a native speaker of American English |
|
Yankee
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 16 Apr 2006
Posts: 7464
Location: Northeast US
|
|
| Sat Jul 05, 2008 0:18 am Expression: "Nobody said he didn't want cake." |
|
|
| And without context, 'nobody' and 'he' could be different parties. e.g. Amy told the waitress that nobody said he didn't want cake after she asked if somebody had said Jamie didn't want cake. So I didn't see any necessity to take the risk of substituting he for they. |
|
Haihao
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 26 Oct 2006
Posts: 1307
Location: Japan
|
|
| Sat Jul 05, 2008 4:05 am Expression: "Nobody said he didn't want cake." |
|
|
In the waitress example above, "he" is referring to a specific person: Jamie. Naturally, you would not substitute "they" for Jamie.
I too read the "he" as referring to a specific person. I disagree that "they" is not acceptable as a gender-neutral singular pronoun in North Amerca these days. In fact, it is so accepted that when I saw "he" (unless I knew that all the people present were male), I assumed a particular person was being referred to. |
|
Barb_D
I'm here quite often ;-)
Joined: 13 Jun 2008
Posts: 231
|
|
| Sat Jul 05, 2008 6:38 am Expression: "Nobody said he didn't want cake." |
|
|
| For some reason when I read these sentences, I imagined they were referred to a group of men. In my opinion it wil be less confusing, or will not be confusing at all if people just use "they". |
|
siCantikManis
I'm here quite often ;-)
Joined: 17 Jun 2008
Posts: 218
Location: Zippon
|
|
| Sat Jul 05, 2008 7:23 am Expression: "Nobody said he didn't want cake." |
|
|
| Barb_D wrote: | | I disagree that "they" is not acceptable as a gender-neutral singular pronoun in North America these days. In fact, it is so accepted that when I saw "he" (unless I knew that all the people present were male), I assumed a particular person was being referred to. |
The plural pronoun "they" has been used in spoken, but seldom written English, for half a millennium as a gender-neutral generic pronoun to indicate "any person".
However, acceptance in written language was slow in coming. Over the past couple of decades it's become acceptable in British publishing, even in academic texts, but Americans have been slower to accept it. In America the tendency has been to go with feminist-devised monstrosities that involve a masculine and feminine pronoun with a hiccup in between them, such as "his/her", "him/her", and my all time favorite "s/he", which to me just looks like "she". Many English professors in the US still insist that these be used instead of some less clumsy pronoun. I once asked one of them if he understood that "they" is used in British publishing now for that purpose, and he snapped back, "THEY'RE IDIOTS!" |
|
Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 4227
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
|
|
|
| Could it be "except on"? | Distinguish the words: thorny, testing, uphill, steep |
