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 Mon Jul 07, 2008 4:01 am Lacking communicative functionality? |
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| Oh, come on! Any form of language anyone uses has some kind of "communicative functionality" or he wouldn't use it. Even most aphasia patients' language has some sort of "communicative functionality". Even very rudimentary pidgins have "communicative functionality". |
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Jamie (K)
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| Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:21 am Lacking communicative functionality? |
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I agree. I wonder why so many prescriptivists would disagree? See Ammon 1998, for example.
Could you give some examples of what you call rudimentary pidgins? |
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Molly
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| Mon Jul 07, 2008 13:31 pm Lacking communicative functionality? |
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| Molly wrote: | | I agree. I wonder why so many prescriptivists would disagree? |
I doubt prescriptivists would disagree. "Communicative functionality" doesn't sound like a term that a prescriptivist would make up or use. It sounds like a term that was made up by anti-prescriptivists to demonize prescriptivists with.
| Molly wrote: | | See Ammon 1998, for example. |
Who's Ammon? How can I see him?
| Molly wrote: | | Could you give some examples of what you call rudimentary pidgins? |
Russonorsk. |
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Jamie (K)
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| Mon Jul 07, 2008 14:00 pm Lacking communicative functionality? |
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| Quote: | | It sounds like a term that was made up by anti-prescriptivists to demonize prescriptivists with. |
I doubt it.
What's the difference between a creole and a pidgin? |
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Molly
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| Mon Jul 07, 2008 14:04 pm Lacking communicative functionality? |
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| Molly wrote: | | Quote: | | It sounds like a term that was made up by anti-prescriptivists to demonize prescriptivists with. |
I doubt it. |
I also doubt they did exactly what I said, but whether they made it up specifically to demonize prescriptivists with or not, it sounds like the anti-prescriptivists are attributing thoughts to the prescriptivists in words that are not theirs. It's like CNN, where Democrats purport to explain the thoughts of Republicans in terms that Republicans don't use. |
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Jamie (K)
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| Mon Jul 07, 2008 14:09 pm Lacking communicative functionality? |
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| Jamie (K) wrote: | | Molly wrote: | | Quote: | | It sounds like a term that was made up by anti-prescriptivists to demonize prescriptivists with. |
I doubt it. |
I also doubt they did exactly what I said, but whether they made it up specifically to demonize prescriptivists with or not, it sounds like the anti-prescriptivists are attributing thoughts to the prescriptivists in words that are not theirs. It's like CNN, where Democrats purport to explain the thoughts of Republicans in terms that Republicans don't use. |
Jamie, if you could get away from your "Reds under the bed" reaction to so many threads, we might get a discussion going. |
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Molly
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| Mon Jul 07, 2008 14:15 pm Lacking communicative functionality? |
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| Molly wrote: | | Jamie, if you could get away from your "Reds under the bed" reaction to so many threads, we might get a discussion going. |
What you've said doesn't relate at all to what I've said. What I said has nothing to do with any "red scare".
In academic discourse, you frequently get one side devising a term to describe something that they think is desirable or undesirable, and they use it to explain the thoughts of their opposition. However, in many cases the opposition doesn't use the term, or sometimes even the concept, and using the term to describe their stand creates an automatic distortion. |
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Jamie (K)
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| Mon Jul 07, 2008 15:30 pm Lacking communicative functionality? |
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| Quote: | | In academic discourse, you frequently get one side devising a term to describe something that they think is desirable or undesirable, and they use it to explain the thoughts of their opposition. |
Aren't you doing the exact same here?
| Quote: | | It sounds like a term that was made up by anti-prescriptivists to demonize prescriptivists with. |
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Molly
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| Mon Jul 07, 2008 15:32 pm Lacking communicative functionality? |
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| Molly wrote: | | Quote: | | In academic discourse, you frequently get one side devising a term to describe something that they think is desirable or undesirable, and they use it to explain the thoughts of their opposition. |
Aren't you doing the exact same here? |
No. |
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Jamie (K)
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| Mon Jul 07, 2008 21:18 pm Lacking communicative functionality? |
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LOL! You know you are. |
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Molly
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| Tue Jul 08, 2008 0:19 am Lacking communicative functionality? |
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| Molly wrote: | | What's the difference between a creole and a pidgin? |
Loosely defined, a pidgin becomes a creole when children start speaking it as their native language. Usually by then, it's also evolved some richer vocabulary and more complex structures.
_________________
Native speaker but not a perfect speaker. |
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Skrej
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| Tue Jul 08, 2008 2:06 am Lacking communicative functionality? |
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| Skrej wrote: | | Molly wrote: | | What's the difference between a creole and a pidgin? |
Loosely defined, a pidgin becomes a creole when children start speaking it as their native language. Usually by then, it's also evolved some richer vocabulary and more complex structures. |
OK. Thanks. Where does Russonorsk lie on that scale? |
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Molly
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| Tue Jul 08, 2008 2:59 am Lacking communicative functionality? |
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| Molly wrote: | | Skrej wrote: | | Molly wrote: | | What's the difference between a creole and a pidgin? |
Loosely defined, a pidgin becomes a creole when children start speaking it as their native language. Usually by then, it's also evolved some richer vocabulary and more complex structures. |
OK. Thanks. Where does Russonorsk lie on that scale? |
Russonorsk is a dead pidgin language that was at a very rudimentary level. It disappeared after the Bolsheviks began to seal off the USSR.
You can read about it here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russonorsk
Tok Pisin is still considered a pidgin, I guess, but because it is so widely used it is becoming a creole.
Don't forget that there's also a stage called "decreolization" in which the creole language is in so much contact with its superstrate language that it begins to lose its creole features and become closer to the standard language. So-called African-American Vernacular English is an example of that. |
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Jamie (K)
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| Tue Jul 08, 2008 13:12 pm Lacking communicative functionality? |
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| Molly wrote: |
LOL! You know you are. |
Only in your imagination. I'm not a true prescriptivist or a true anti-prescriptivist, and I am disturbed by both extremes. I'm very aware of the semantic games the sides play, and that's what I'm pointing out. |
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Jamie (K)
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Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| the law of proximity in grammar | Does the technical lexicon belong solely to standard varieties? |
