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 #77 (permalink) Fri Jul 11, 2008 23:11 pm Legitimising dialect discrimination |
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| Quote: |
| Should the person be able to communicate clearly with customers, what of colleagues? |
Why do you assume a dialect speaker would not be able to communicate clearly? |
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Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017
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| #78 (permalink) Sat Jul 12, 2008 12:34 pm Legitimising dialect discrimination |
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| Molly wrote: |
| Do you need profundity in every post? |
Not at all. That's why I suggest it would be reasonable for you to say:
| Quote: |
"Dialect discrimination" is present in the workplace, and non-standard usage by a candidate can influence an interviewer.
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MrP |
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MrPedantic
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 1319
Location: Southern England
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| #79 (permalink) Sat Jul 12, 2008 13:14 pm Legitimising dialect discrimination |
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| Quote: |
| "Dialect discrimination" is present in the workplace, and non-standard usage by a candidate can influence an interviewer. |
Duh! Wouldn't one first have to state that dialect discrimination is present the workplace before one stated that it is openly legitimised? |
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Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017
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| #80 (permalink) Sat Jul 12, 2008 23:41 pm Legitimising dialect discrimination |
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Has anything changed since 1993 regarding dialect discrimination in the USA?
More that two decades of research on language variation and language attitudes in American society have led me to conclude that dialect prejudice remains one of the most resistant and insidious of all prejudices in our society.
Wolfram W. 1993. The Alumni Magazine of North Carolina State University. |
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Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017
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Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017
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| #82 (permalink) Sun Jul 13, 2008 12:10 pm Legitimising dialect discrimination |
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Hi Molly
Are socio-linguists really normal people who have lived in the real world? I am not sure.
All I was getting at is the how you have to sell an idea. This idea may not be down to extensive research.
Likewise a controversial idea, and especially anything that piques are empathy like "discrimination" does sells.
But this attitude has a sense of casting people in the role of the victim.
Everybody discriminates or makes discriminating remarks, donīt you think.
Also to pick up the dialect clarity issue of earlier. Yes some dialectical speakers do not speak clearly. And some dialects are harder to understand to an untrained ear because of this lack of clarity.
If I took people to where I was born or to areas of Lancashire (where my folks live), they would struggle with understanding.
Certain traits like swallowing endings, removal of "h" makes it harder for non-native speakers to understand.
Try using Peter Kay in lessons, and then tell me that clarity of speech is not an issue.
I have been in a situation where I was a translator for a Scot (from Invergarry) who lived in a house with non-native speakers. The problems the other flat mates had was with quote her "chewing" of words.
I had no problems. But do you think the problem is with the speaker or listener in this or similar situations?
Clarity may be down to the individual speaker, and you can not say one dialect has a common trait of lack of clarity. However there are certain common denominators present in dialects that cause problems.
If as an employer you highlight this or are sensitive to your clients understanding of your employees, is this realism or discrimination?
We place so much emphasis on protection these days that we put less and less on the employee to do what is necessary for work.
If you wanna work you make compromises, we all do it.
Why should an employer employ someone who is not willing to do this?
Who can judge if someone hinders their work by how the speak, do you think?
_________________
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Stew.t.
I'm here quite often ;-)
Joined: 14 Dec 2006
Posts: 549
Location: Leipzig, Germany
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| #83 (permalink) Sun Jul 13, 2008 14:18 pm Legitimising dialect discrimination |
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Hi Stew
Your points are good ones and I agree with you.
| Quote: |
| But this attitude has a sense of casting people in the role of the victim. |
And this can lead to a victim mentality. I have run into plenty of people with a victim mentality. Such people tend to assign blame for any and every failure or difficulty to any and everyone other than themselves. This way of thinking is basically a guarantee that difficulty and failure will continue. Many people with a victim mentality seem to feel that the world owes them everything. Such "victims" seem to be convinced that they are entitled to everything without having to work for anything.
I would suggest that such people simply end up being victims of their own misplaced anger and of their inability to take any responsibility for themselves.
This is not to say that discrimination has never existed or does not exist. It exists everywhere to one degree or another, and in innumerable ways, shapes and forms.
I could only laugh at the story about "dialect discrimination" that someone had once allegedly faced in third grade. Only once, mind you. Once, in third grade, this person supposedly "flunked" a school assignment because she pronounced the word "creek" as "crick". (This was in one of the links Molly provided as proof of "dialect discrimination".) To present such an incident as proof of "dialect discrimination" borders on the absurd -- and that's putting it kindly.
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Yankee
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 16 Apr 2006
Posts: 8265
Location: USA
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| #84 (permalink) Sun Jul 13, 2008 15:29 pm Legitimising dialect discrimination |
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| Molly wrote: |
| Quote: |
| "Dialect discrimination" is present in the workplace, and non-standard usage by a candidate can influence an interviewer. |
Duh! Wouldn't one first have to state that dialect discrimination is present the workplace before one stated that it is openly legitimised? |
Indeed. My point was that:
| Quote: |
| "Dialect discrimination" is present in the workplace, and non-standard usage by a candidate can influence an interviewer. |
is a reasonable statement; but "openly legitimised" turns it into a fairytale.
MrP |
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MrPedantic
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 1319
Location: Southern England
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| #85 (permalink) Sun Jul 13, 2008 18:51 pm Legitimising dialect discrimination |
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| Quote: |
| Are socio-linguists really normal people who have lived in the real world? I am not sure. |
If you're not sure, you might ask them. I know many ESL teachers who seem not to have lived in the real world. |
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Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017
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| #86 (permalink) Sun Jul 13, 2008 20:39 pm Legitimising dialect discrimination |
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Hi Molly
Are you really so bad at picking up sarcasm.
Please tell us why you think ESL teachers do not live in the real world, in order to make a living as one you need to "get real".
What is the "real world" anyway, apart from a crap MTV series?
_________________
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Stew.t.
I'm here quite often ;-)
Joined: 14 Dec 2006
Posts: 549
Location: Leipzig, Germany
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| #87 (permalink) Sun Jul 13, 2008 22:35 pm Legitimising dialect discrimination |
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| Molly wrote: |
| Quote: |
| But then, what does that "being around business people" boil down to? |
You tell us.
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I already have:
| MrP wrote: |
| Molly wrote: |
When you've been around businees people a long time, you know that the scare-tactics of so called educationalists wanting to sell their standardised English product are not always worth worrying about.
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But then, what does [your] "being around business people" boil down to?
| Molly wrote: |
[Did you watch] "The Apprentice" [recently? The person with the one of the strongest among candidates was picked for the job.]
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A game show.
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I would be very wary of confusing The Apprentice with an ordinary recruitment process, by the way. Here are some significant differences:
1. Normally, people don't get told "You're fired!" at the end of the process. (Generally, you have to have a job, before you can be fired.)
2. Normally, people are not interviewed over several weeks, observed by tv cameras for the whole period, or flown to foreign countries to complete special "tasks".
3. Normally, unsuccessful interview candidates do not feature on chat shows or in the middle pages of the next day's tabloids.
So this would be a more accurate assessment:
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The person with the one of the strongest [accents] among [the] candidates was picked as winner of the game show.
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MrP |
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MrPedantic
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 1319
Location: Southern England
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| #88 (permalink) Sun Jul 13, 2008 23:18 pm Legitimising dialect discrimination |
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| Quote: |
| Everybody discriminates or makes discriminating remarks, donīt you think. |
I'm sure they do, but how it affects people's lives is what interests me.
| Quote: |
| Yes some dialectical speakers do not speak clearly. |
| Quote: |
| They do to each other. |
Would you say that Hugh Grant and Prince Charles speak clearly?
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| Certain traits like swallowing endings, removal of "h" makes it harder for non-native speakers to understand. |
And why do you think that is?
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| Try using Peter Kay in lessons, and then tell me that clarity of speech is not an issue. |
Try teaching ESL students, from beginner to intermediate, Peter Kay's English and then see if they have problems with Mr P's English, for example. This is nothing to do with clarity of speech, but only with familiarity.
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| But do you think the problem is with the speaker or listener in this or similar situations? |
With the limitations of ESL/EFL teaching, publishers, academies and the likes of some of the members of this and other fora.
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| We place so much emphasis on protection these days that we put less and less on the employee to do what is necessary for work. |
No, what "we" do is either remain in the "all are victimised" camp or in the "there are no victims" camp. Beyond those camps lies reality and case by case analyses. It seems more fashionable these days to cry "there are no victims!".
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| Why should an employer employ someone who is not willing to do this? |
What compromises would such an employer be making?
Wouldn't you say that having the "qualification" is directly linked to the function one is being employed to perform? |
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Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017
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| #89 (permalink) Sun Jul 13, 2008 23:37 pm Legitimising dialect discrimination |
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| Quote: |
| Pray tell how do ESL teachers not live in the real world. |
Pray tell how do socio-linguists not live in the real world. |
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Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017
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| #90 (permalink) Sun Jul 13, 2008 23:40 pm Legitimising dialect discrimination |
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| Quote: |
| I would suggest that such people simply end up being victims of their own misplaced anger and of their inability to take any responsibility for themselves. |
Yes, we all know about such mentality - and with you and Jamie constantly reminding us of it, how could we forget? But, why don't you tell us about true victims of dialect discrimination that you've met?
Would you say that these are victim-making words, Amy?
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Definition
Harassment is defined by the Ontario Human Rights Code (1981) as a course of comments or conduct consisting of words or actions that disparage or humiliate a person in relation to one of the prohibited grounds contained in the Code. The Board of Governors prohibits harassment on the grounds of race, ancestry, place of origin, colour, ethnic origin (including language, dialect or accent), citizenship, creed, sex, sexual orientation, disability, age, record of offences, marital status, family status and the receipt of public assistance. These prohibitions are based on those specified in the Human Rights Code.
Harassment may be related to any of the grounds prohibited by the Code. It can include comments or conduct by a person in a position of authority which are intimidating, threatening or abusive and may be accompanied by direct or implied threats to the individual's grade(s), status or job. Harassment can also occur between people of similar authority. For clarity purposes, similar authority would be support staff to support staff, or faculty to faculty, etc. |
http://www.nipissingu.ca/hr/phd_definition.asp
Like the name of the university: Nipissing. |
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Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017
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