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Is it true that AAVE is spoken in federal government in the US?


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Is it true that AAVE is spoken in federal government in the US? Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:42 am  Is it true that AAVE is spoken in federal government in the US?
 

Quote:
You always accuse me of stereotyping, and even claim I'm stereotyping in cases where I'm not, but you want us to tell you if "teachers" in a nation of 350 million people are "doing that".

Let me put it another way: Are teachers asked by education authorities, etc. to do the above?
Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)


Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017

Is it true that AAVE is spoken in federal government in the US? Fri Jul 11, 2008 12:40 pm  Is it true that AAVE is spoken in federal government in the US?
 

Molly wrote:
Quote:
You always accuse me of stereotyping, and even claim I'm stereotyping in cases where I'm not, but you want us to tell you if "teachers" in a nation of 350 million people are "doing that".

Let me put it another way: Are teachers asked by education authorities, etc. to do the above?

In which city and state? Education is controlled locally here, not nationally or even at the state level, so you're asking me about tens of thousands of districts. How can I know? Besides, many kids never go to school until they start university, because very large numbers of children are educated at home by their parents.
Jamie (K)
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Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 4451
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA

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Is it true that AAVE is spoken in federal government in the US? Fri Jul 11, 2008 14:32 pm  Is it true that AAVE is spoken in federal government in the US?
 

Quote:
In which city and state? Education is controlled locally here, not nationally or even at the state level, so you're asking me about tens of thousands of districts. How can I know?

Jamie, "I don't know" is also an answer. If you don't know, why bother to reply at all?

Quote:
Besides, many kids never go to school until they start university, because very large numbers of children are educated at home by their parents.

How many approx? Or is it impossible to give an approx figure?
Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)


Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017

Is it true that AAVE is spoken in federal government in the US? Fri Jul 11, 2008 14:49 pm  Is it true that AAVE is spoken in federal government in the US?
 

Molly wrote:
How many approx? Or is it impossible to give an approx figure?

The figures range from 500,000 to 2 million. The National Center for Education Statistics puts the number at 1.1 million for 2003, but I think the number has certainly grown in the meantime, ergo the 2 million figure.
Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)


Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 4451
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA

Is it true that AAVE is spoken in federal government in the US? Fri Jul 11, 2008 17:07 pm  Is it true that AAVE is spoken in federal government in the US?
 

Quote:
The National Center for Education Statistics puts the number at 1.1 million for 2003, but I think the number has certainly grown in the meantime, ergo the 2 million figure.

Why doesn't the same organisation have figures for this:

The amount of teachers who "help their students understand that the difference between the Standard English dialect spoken in Boston and the Standard English dialect
spoken in Atlanta can be explained by differences in regional norms for language use. The difference between Standard English in Baltimore
and vernacular English dialects in Baltimore (e.g., African American Vernacular English and urban Appalachian English) is explained by different
social norms."

2 million is not really a large number, is it?
Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)


Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017

Is it true that AAVE is spoken in federal government in the US? Fri Jul 11, 2008 17:23 pm  Is it true that AAVE is spoken in federal government in the US?
 

Two million is a larger number than you'll find in countries like Germany, where home schoolers get arrested. Two million is half the population of Slovakia.

The same organization doesn't have figures for how many teachers help students understand the differences between dialects and standard English for a number of reasons:

1. We don't have a police state, and there are no spies in the classrooms to note down every little thing that happens.

2. It's more urgent that kids learn literacy skills in standard English, which many schools don't do a good job at.

3. Most school teachers aren't the world's brightest people, and they aren't competent to explain dialect differences to children or to anyone. In a typical university class in introductory linguistics, about half the education students fail the class or have to drop out. The content is 7th- and 8th-grade material in Central Europe, but American education students find it so hard that they think it's unreasonable for them to have to learn it.

4. Too much class time is already eaten up by other groups' pet agendas and various types of brainwashing mandated by political constituencies.
Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)


Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 4451
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA

Is it true that AAVE is spoken in federal government in the US? Fri Jul 11, 2008 21:24 pm  Is it true that AAVE is spoken in federal government in the US?
 

Quote:
Two million is a larger number than you'll find in countries like Germany, where home schoolers get arrested. Two million is half the population of Slovakia.

But what precentage of US children of school age is 2 million?

Quote:
1. We don't have a police state, and there are no spies in the classrooms to note down every little thing that happens.

What a strange reply. The National Center for Education Statistics got its figure on home-schoolers somehow. Why can't it use the same methods to get figures on the amount of teachers who "help their students understand that the difference between the Standard English dialect spoken in Boston and the Standard English dialect
spoken in Atlanta can be explained by differences in regional norms for language use. The difference between Standard English in Baltimore and vernacular English dialects in Baltimore (e.g., African American Vernacular English and urban Appalachian English) is explained by different social norms."

Is collecting statistic spying? No.

Quote:
2. It's more urgent that kids learn literacy skills in standard English, which many schools don't do a good job at.

And how would teachers helping "their students understand that the difference between the Standard English dialect spoken in Boston and the Standard English dialect spoken in Atlanta can be explained by differences in regional norms for language use. The difference between Standard English in Baltimore and vernacular English dialects in Baltimore (e.g., African American Vernacular English and urban Appalachian English) is explained by different social norms." affect learning standard English skills?

(Is "which many schools don't do a good job at." standard English?)

Quote:
The content is 7th- and 8th-grade material in Central Europe, but American education students find it so hard that they think it's unreasonable for them to have to learn it.

So Americans on the whole are less competent educationally than their European peers, are they?

Quote:
Too much class time is already eaten up by other groups' pet agendas and various types of brainwashing mandated by political constituencies.

Are you saying that teachers who help their students understand "that the difference between the Standard English dialect spoken in Boston and the Standard English dialect spoken in Atlanta can be explained by differences in regional norms for language use. The difference between Standard English in Baltimore and vernacular English dialects in Baltimore (e.g., African American Vernacular English and urban Appalachian English) is explained by different social norms." are brainwashing kids?

Quote:
Too much class time is already eaten up by other groups'

"Other" to what?
Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)


Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017

Is it true that AAVE is spoken in federal government in the US? Fri Jul 11, 2008 22:04 pm  Is it true that AAVE is spoken in federal government in the US?
 

Hi Molly

How do teachers in Nigeria address these sorts of "dialect discrimination" issues?

How do teachers in Spain address these sorts of issues?

What has "hubby" told you about how these sorts of issues are addressed in the UK?
.
Yankee
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Joined: 16 Apr 2006
Posts: 8265
Location: USA

Is it true that AAVE is spoken in federal government in the US? Fri Jul 11, 2008 22:30 pm  Is it true that AAVE is spoken in federal government in the US?
 

Quote:
How do teachers in Nigeria address these sorts of "dialect discrimination" issues?

Not sure, haven't lived there for a while.

Quote:
How do teachers in Spain address these sorts of issues?

Not sure, only lived here a while.

Quote:
What has "hubby" told you about how these sorts of issues are addressed in the UK?

He's not sure as he hasn't been involved in formal education there.

How about in the US, Amy? How do teachers in the US address these sorts of issues?
Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)


Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017

Is it true that AAVE is spoken in federal government in the US? Fri Jul 11, 2008 23:03 pm  Is it true that AAVE is spoken in federal government in the US?
 

.
How does your "hubby" handle "dialect discrimination" at the academy?
.
Yankee
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Joined: 16 Apr 2006
Posts: 8265
Location: USA

Is it true that AAVE is spoken in federal government in the US? Fri Jul 11, 2008 23:18 pm  Is it true that AAVE is spoken in federal government in the US?
 

Hi

I am also interested if he follows the European Common Framework?

And how, if he has a dialectical diverse choice of teachers, this fits to the framework?

cheers stew.t.
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Stew.t.
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Is it true that AAVE is spoken in federal government in the US? Fri Jul 11, 2008 23:21 pm  Is it true that AAVE is spoken in federal government in the US?
 

Yankee wrote:
.
How does your "hubby" handle "dialect discrimination" at the academy?
.

Doesn't have to. Doesn't happen.

How about in the US, Amy? How do teachers in the US address these sorts of issues?
Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)


Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017

Is it true that AAVE is spoken in federal government in the US? Fri Jul 11, 2008 23:24 pm  Is it true that AAVE is spoken in federal government in the US?
 

stew.t. wrote:
Hi

I am also interested if he follows the European Common Framework?

And how, if he has a dialectical diverse choice of teachers, this fits to the framework?

cheers stew.t.

I'll ask him and get back to you. Do you follow the European Common Framework?
Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)


Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017

Is it true that AAVE is spoken in federal government in the US? Fri Jul 11, 2008 23:46 pm  Is it true that AAVE is spoken in federal government in the US?
 

There was nothing strange about my answers, Molly.

It's easy to keep track of home-schooled kids, because in most states they have to report for assessment, so that it's assured that they are learning up to standard.

It's NOT easy to keep statistics on what is taught INSIDE the classroom, because you'd need someone in the classroom all the time to tell you what is being taught. The administrators can tell you what the curriculum is, but they don't know for sure what is going on.

Examples:

-- In the year my niece's elementary school class was supposed to be taught US history and North American geography, the teacher decided she preferred to teach them about ancient Egypt instead that year. It was the first year their social studies lessons had been about anything other than sub-Saharan Africa. She went into her civics classes knowing nearly nothing about the history of the US or where anything was, but she knew all about Africa. (This is called "multiculturalism". It's teaching a foreign culture instead of the student's own culture.)

-- Many of my university students had to do their teaching internships in schools that officially forbade the teaching of grammar. However, unbeknownst to the administration, many teachers were, in fact, teaching grammar by giving it vague names in their lesson plans, such as "daily oral language". The administrators didn't know what this was, but it sounded innovative, so the teachers were praised for being "creative", rather than being punished for teaching grammar.

Besides, your whole premise is absurd. Kids in Baltimore or some other city don't need to be taught the differences between the standard form and the local dialects, because they hear them all the time. To the extent that they are taught the difference, it is taught in an ad hoc manner in order for them to learn standard English.

Do teachers in Liberia and other West African countries teach their children the differences between standard English and creole? If they do, they don't do a very good job of it, because many of them finish high school having trouble distinguishing between them, and when they come to the US, they wind up in ESL.
Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)


Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 4451
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA

Is it true that AAVE is spoken in federal government in the US? Sat Jul 12, 2008 0:17 am  Is it true that AAVE is spoken in federal government in the US?
 

Quote:
It's NOT easy to keep statistics on what is taught INSIDE the classroom, because you'd need someone in the classroom all the time to tell you what is being taught. The administrators can tell you what the curriculum is, but they don't know for sure what is going on.

Well let's just talk about the curricula then:

Do you know whether curricula in US schools asks teachers to help their students understand "that the difference between the Standard English dialect spoken in Boston and the Standard English dialect spoken in Atlanta can be explained by differences in regional norms for language use. The difference between Standard English in Baltimore and vernacular English dialects in Baltimore (e.g., African American Vernacular English and urban Appalachian English) is explained by different social norms." ?

If you don't know, it's OK.

Quote:
Besides, your whole premise is absurd. Kids in Baltimore or some other city don't need to be taught the differences between the standard form and the local dialects, because they hear them all the time.

The point is not in just being taught the differences or hearing them, the point is helping students understand, appreciate, and respect differences in norms. That's quite beyond teaching that standard English is the only dialect with norms and the only correct form of English, isn't it?
Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)


Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017

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