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 Wed Jul 16, 2008 6:05 am Racial identity and speech |
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| Molly wrote: | | Quote: | | Do you think you would be identified as being black and a woman by an apartment rental agent or landlord in the US -- based only on your speech and voice? |
Unless the landlord was familiar with Nigerian accents, I probably wouldn't be identified as black, no. I'd probably be identified as foreign though. As for as a woman, I hope so - I have a delicate feminine voice. |
The landlord wouldn't have to know your accent was specifically Nigerian. The English accents of West Africa and the Caribbean are similar and quite different from those of Europe. The landlord would probably think you were "Jamaican or something" and identify you as "probably black". However, a landlord who refuses to rent to an African-American very likely would not refuse to rent to an African.
| Molly wrote: | | Would you say that basing racial identity on speech is overtly racist, Amy? |
It is not 100% possible to recognize someone's race in the United States based on speech.
However, most but not all of the time, in the United States, if a person speaks a language variety that an ordinary person would label "black English", that person is black. If a white person speaks a variety that an ordinary person would label "black English", there's almost a 100% chance that he doesn't speak it quite right, and he is easily identified over the phone as white. Many people who speak standard American English are identifiable over the phone as black because of their accent. It is extremely rare for a standard English speaker of another race to have that accent.
If a person speaks standard broadcast English over the phone, with no trace of an ethnic accent, his race is not identifiable. Many American-born people from immigrant families speak hyper-clear standard English without even a trace of regional pronunciation, but again, it's not possible to identify their race over the telephone.
In my area there are two other accents that give away a person's race over the phone. One is a mostly Midwestern accent with Southern rhythm and a very, very mild trace of Southern pronunciation. That accent indicates that the person is white and has parents from Appalachia. It also means that the person is of lower working class status, because children of Appalachian parents here nearly all speak with the standard local accent if they are educated. The other is an accent that is tinged with Polish. It gives all the same information as the Appalachian-tinged accent, but the parents or grandparents were from Poland. Theoretically, a black person, an Indian or a Chinese-American could have either of these accents, but I have never seen it in my entire life. Even the blacks in my city who are native Polish speakers nonetheless speak English with an African-American accent.
Again, this is all a matter of probabilities and not absolutes.
As for a landlord's part in all this, I'd say it is relatively rare nowadays that a tenant is rejected just because he is black. The landlord has to size up the prospective tenant's character very quickly, and without deep knowledge of the person, so this encourages, and can even necessitate judging based on superficials. The same landlord who rejects a tenant who speaks "Ebonics" is also likely to reject whites who are too young, appear to be alcoholic, look disreputable, smoke, leer at their teenage daughters, or throw up other red flags. They may rent to a black professor but reject a white manager who gives them a bad feeling. They may rent to an African but not to an African-American. They may rent to a black-white interracial couple, but not to a young, single white mother. I met a white lady who was willing to rent to a black family, but she refused one particular black family when she figured out that they intended to fill every room in the entire house with as many beds as possible (in order to get all members of their extended family into a better school district).
So the rejection is seldom due only to race, only to language, etc.
Also, not every person who says he's going around trying to rent and apartment really has that as his intention. Sometimes people are sent out by civil rights organizations just to incite an incident that can be used as the basis for a lawsuit. These organizations take the mere refusal to rent to a black person as evidence of racial discrimination, and they often ignore other factors that went into the refusal. Sometimes landlords who do not actually discriminate based on race are nonetheless sued for it. |
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Jamie (K)
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Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 4451
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| Wed Jul 16, 2008 7:50 am Racial identity and speech |
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| Quote: | | The English accents of West Africa and the Caribbean are similar and quite different from those of Europe. |
Really? No one has ever mistaken me for Rita Marley.
| Quote: | | However, a landlord who refuses to rent to an African-American very likely would not refuse to rent to an African. |
Why?
| Quote: | | If a white person speaks a variety that an ordinary person would label "black English", there's almost a 100% chance that he doesn't speak it quite right, and he is easily identified over the phone as white. |
Are US landlords that expert at telling the difference?
| Quote: | | Theoretically, a black person, an Indian or a Chinese-American could have either of these accents, but I have never seen it in my entire life. Even the blacks in my city who are native Polish speakers nonetheless speak English with an African-American accent. |
Is this because people of different ethnic or social groups in the US don't generally mix? I mean, races and social groups in Britain seem to mix a lot and many second-generation black people there cannot be distinguished as such by their accent. Is the US a more ghettoised society?
| Quote: | | The same landlord who rejects a tenant who speaks "Ebonics" is also likely to reject whites who are too young, appear to be alcoholic, look disreputable, smoke, leer at their teenage daughters, or throw up other red flags. |
But we're not talking about physical identification here. Would a landlord more readily reject an "Ebonics" speaker on the telephone than he would a white person?
And if, as you say, a person's race can, mostly, be determined by accent, in the US, what how would you answer this question?
| Quote: | | If racial identifcation by voice has been acknowledged in murder and drug cases, why hasn't it played a more conspicuous role in housing discrimination cases? |
| Quote: | | I met a white lady who was willing to rent to a black family, but she refused one particular black family when she figured out that they intended to fill every room in the entire house with as many beds as possible (in order to get all members of their extended family into a better school district). |
Clever family.
| Quote: | | These organizations take the mere refusal to rent to a black person as evidence of racial discrimination, and they often ignore other factors that went into the refusal. Sometimes landlords who do not actually discriminate based on race are nonetheless sued for it. |
But some who do actually discriminate based on race need to be sued, right? |
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Molly
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Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017
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| Wed Jul 16, 2008 12:31 pm Racial identity and speech |
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| Molly wrote: | | Quote: | | The English accents of West Africa and the Caribbean are similar and quite different from those of Europe. |
Really? No one has ever mistaken me for Rita Marley. |
You will be identified by the person on the other end of the phone as "African or Jamaican or something."
| Molly wrote: | | Quote: | | However, a landlord who refuses to rent to an African-American very likely would not refuse to rent to an African. |
Why? |
Because of a probable difference in lifestyle and financial behavior.
By the way, in my experience Africans are often as prejudiced against African-Americans as whites are, and they're less embarrassed about it.
| Molly wrote: | | Quote: | | If a white person speaks a variety that an ordinary person would label "black English", there's almost a 100% chance that he doesn't speak it quite right, and he is easily identified over the phone as white. |
Are US landlords that expert at telling the difference? |
The average person in the US is perfectly adept at detecting what is "real black English" and "fake black English". Almost anybody can tell the difference.
| Molly wrote: | | Quote: | | Theoretically, a black person, an Indian or a Chinese-American could have either of these accents, but I have never seen it in my entire life. Even the blacks in my city who are native Polish speakers nonetheless speak English with an African-American accent. |
Is this because people of different ethnic or social groups in the US don't generally mix? I mean, races and social groups in Britain seem to mix a lot and many second-generation black people there cannot be distinguished as such by their accent. Is the US a more ghettoised society? |
You have basically two societies in most parts of the US. One is "white" society, which includes Asians, English-speaking Hispanics, and increasingly contains a few blacks. Nowadays, when you hear ordinary Americans talk about a neighborhood or school or some other place being "white", they generally mean "not black". The second society consists of blacks who still exhibit ghetto behavior.
This explanation applies to the Midwest and some other places. It may not apply to California, where I understand people are racist against more different types of people.
| Molly wrote: | | Quote: | | The same landlord who rejects a tenant who speaks "Ebonics" is also likely to reject whites who are too young, appear to be alcoholic, look disreputable, smoke, leer at their teenage daughters, or throw up other red flags. |
But we're not talking about physical identification here. Would a landlord more readily reject an "Ebonics" speaker on the telephone than he would a white person? |
When it comes to "black English", dialect is an almost foolproof indicator of physical identity. Some landlords would reject anyone who speaks real "black English" or fake "black English", because use of that dialect, and refusal or inability to switch into a more standard variety is usually indicative of a whole cluster of behavioral traits.
| Molly wrote: | | Quote: | | If racial identifcation by voice has been acknowledged in murder and drug cases, why hasn't it played a more conspicuous role in housing discrimination cases? |
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Because activist legal organizations haven't set any traps yet. Besides this, nowadays the applicant is largely not rejected based on dialect or race alone. It's hard to prove that the landlord would not reject white people speaking the same way.
| Molly wrote: | | Quote: | | These organizations take the mere refusal to rent to a black person as evidence of racial discrimination, and they often ignore other factors that went into the refusal. Sometimes landlords who do not actually discriminate based on race are nonetheless sued for it. |
But some who do actually discriminate based on race need to be sued, right? |
I think the potential tenant should just walk away and find a different landlord. As a whole, race discrimination suits in the US are unjust, because they defend only one race. Despite the frequency with which whites are discriminated against by blacks, you seldom see a suit over it. I know of many cases in which whites were refused restaurant service by black employees, but there's never a lawsuit over it. I even know of cases in which blacks encouraged white coworkers to take on their dialect and discourse features and later used that to get the whites fired. |
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Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 4451
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| Wed Jul 16, 2008 21:43 pm Racial identity and speech |
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| Quote: | | Because of a probable difference in lifestyle and financial behavior. |
And how do African-Americans live and spend in contrast with Africans?
By the way, in my experience Africans are often as prejudiced against African-Americans as whites are, and they're less embarrassed about it.
Not any African I've known. BTW, when you say "Africans", you mean black Africans, right?
| Quote: | | The second society consists of blacks who still exhibit ghetto behavior. |
Don't the Chinese, the Amish, and the Jews also exhibit ghetto behaviour?
| Quote: | | and refusal or inability to switch into a more standard variety is usually indicative of a whole cluster of behavioral traits. |
What kind of behavioural traits?
| Quote: | | It's hard to prove that the landlord would not reject white people speaking the same way. |
So some landlords do think it may be a white person on the line, right? You're saying that they would reject a person because he uses an AAVE accent and not because he may be black, are you?
So what is it?
1. Landords believe that any person with an AAVE accent could be trouble and so reject that person.
2. Landords believe that any black person with an AAVE accent could be trouble and so reject that person.
3. Landords believe that any white or black person with an AAVE accent could be trouble and so reject that person.
| Quote: | | I think the potential tenant should just walk away and find a different landlord. |
And in doing so allow the landlord to discriminate another day.
| Quote: | | I know of many cases in which whites were refused restaurant service by black employees, but there's never a lawsuit over it. I even know of cases in which blacks encouraged white coworkers to take on their dialect and discourse features and later used that to get the whites fired. |
There should have been lawsuits in all those cases. |
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Molly
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| Wed Jul 16, 2008 23:39 pm Racial identity and speech |
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| Molly wrote: | What's your take on these comments, Mr P?
"Black people do have different voices from white people. Sometimes they overlap such that a particular voice could belong either to a white or a black person, but I don't think it's that common. After all, if they have different skin color, different eye color, different hair pattern, and different facial shape, why should we necessarily expect their voices to sound the same?
A black person's voice is typically deep, but not necessarily... for example, Chris Rock's voice isn't deep at all, but it's still definitely identifiable as a black person's voice, and it still would be if he didn't speak with an AAVE accent. I can't really explain why, there aren't really any good words to describe vocal quality."
http://www.antimoon.com/forum/p167207.htm#167207
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I think the poster in question was ill-advised to embark on a discussion of race with a white middle-aged male who enjoys pretending to be a young black female.
MrP |
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MrPedantic
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Location: Southern England
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| Wed Jul 16, 2008 23:41 pm Racial identity and speech |
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Molly, Jamie said "most" in that quote... and I somewhat agree with him.
If you lined up all 40 million (or so) African Americans and asked them each to speak, one at a time, many similarities would likely be present in the majority of the speech -- at least in vocal inflections.
I'm not saying it's attractive or unattractive, just that that's probably what would happen.
And sadly, the one here and there who DIDN'T talk that way would be singled out for questioning:
- Where did you get your degree?
- For which company do you work?
- In which suburb did you grow up?
Whereas with the standard dialect, some assumptions would, rightly or wrongly, be made. (and I agree with Amy and Alan that we need to get away from those assumptions)
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Prezbucky
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Location: Nashville, TN (USA)
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| Wed Jul 16, 2008 23:44 pm Racial identity and speech |
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And no, I'm not going to try to speak ebonics -- I can't pull it off very well. I don't know the lingo too well.
I can, however, mimic a standard African-American accent. I do it around my A-A co-workers when I feel like getting smacked. hehe
(no, they're cool. I try to sound hip sometimes and most of the time it backfires, so mostly I just talk like myself now)
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Billie Jean is not my lover. Hee. |
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Prezbucky
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Location: Nashville, TN (USA)
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| Thu Jul 17, 2008 0:01 am Racial identity and speech |
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| Quote: | | I think the poster in question was ill-advised to embark on a discussion of race with a white middle-aged male who enjoys pretending to be a young black female. |
Quite true, I'm not so young.
What difference would the identity of poster make, the question was, after all, a question. Jamie replied to the question, not the poster, I think. |
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Molly
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Joined: 12 Feb 2008
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| Thu Jul 17, 2008 0:03 am Racial identity and speech |
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| Gone to Lunch. |
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Molly
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Posts: 4017
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| Thu Jul 17, 2008 0:24 am Racial identity and speech |
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| Molly wrote: | Jamie also said this:
| Quote: | | Black people do have different voices from white people. |
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Molly, are you forgetting who you're talking to or about again, or are you simply misquoting on purpose? Didn't you actually post that here yourself, saying that someone over at antimoon had posted it? 
And let's be honest about antimoon. There is no registration required there, so for all we know, you could have planted that post yourself.
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Yankee
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| Thu Jul 17, 2008 0:28 am Racial identity and speech |
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| Quote: | | There is no registration required there, so for all we know, you might have planted that post yourself. |
And I might also be you. |
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Molly
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Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017
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| Thu Jul 17, 2008 0:38 am Racial identity and speech |
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| Molly wrote: | | Quote: | | I think the poster in question was ill-advised to embark on a discussion of race with a white middle-aged male who enjoys pretending to be a young black female. |
Quite true, I'm not so young.
What difference would the identity of poster make, the question was, after all, a question.
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You have answered your own question. If the identity of the poster did not make a difference, white middle-aged men would not enjoy pretending to be not-so-young black females.
MrP |
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MrPedantic
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Joined: 13 Oct 2006
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Location: Southern England
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| Thu Jul 17, 2008 0:41 am Racial identity and speech |
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| Mr P's doing what he does best, i.e. sniping. What is this obsession he has with me? He follows me from forum to forum. Can he explain his behaviour? I think not. |
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Molly
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| Thu Jul 17, 2008 0:41 am Racial identity and speech |
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| Molly wrote: | | Quote: | | There is no registration required there, so for all we know, you might have planted that post yourself. |
And I might also be you. |
You might be an American female pretending to be a British male pretending to be a Nigerian female? |
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MrPedantic
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Joined: 13 Oct 2006
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Location: Southern England
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