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 #17 (permalink) Thu Jul 24, 2008 23:42 pm About non-restrictive relative, "that" |
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Hello Sieger,
| sieger wrote: |
Dear MrPedantic
I feel very sorry that you should change commas to dashes in the quotation. You look too pedantic. The non-restrictive that in the quotaition would sound odd for you, native speakers, since it is ungrammatical. But your oddness against non-restrictive that might make you feel something except "strange".
Sieger |
I wouldn't call it "ungrammatical"; here are two famous examples of non-defining "that":
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O Proserpina,
For the flowers now, that, frighted, thou let’st fall
From Dis’s waggon! Daffodils,
That come before the swallow dares, and take
The winds of March with beauty; violets dim,
But sweeter than the lids of Juno’s eyes,
Or Cytherea’s breath; pale primroses,
That die unmarried, ere they can behold
Bright Phœbus in his strength, — a malady
Most incident to maids; bold oxlips, and
The crown-imperial; lilies of all kinds,
The flower-de-luce being one...
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But it is less common in modern edited prose than non-defining "which"; that perhaps makes it seem odd.
MrP |
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MrPedantic
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 1326
Location: Southern England
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| #18 (permalink) Thu Jul 24, 2008 23:44 pm About non-restrictive relative, "that" |
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| Molly wrote: |
| Quote: |
2. And as you know, the meeting – that we’d never wanted anyway – was just foisted on us.
it seems a bit more "defining". |
As punctuation marks do not exist in spoken language, how would one choose whether to use dashes or commas when transcribing this?
And as you know/the meeting/that we’d never wanted anyway/was just foisted on us. |
In that case, how did the fellows in Cambridge choose?
| Molly, quoting the CGE, wrote: |
Example from the Cambridge Grammar of English (CGE):
And as you know, the meeting, that we’d never wanted anyway, was just foisted on us. (informal spoken)
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MrP |
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MrPedantic
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 1326
Location: Southern England
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| #19 (permalink) Fri Jul 25, 2008 8:11 am About non-restrictive relative, "that" |
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| Quote: |
| In that case, how did the fellows in Cambridge choose? |
I did not say one cannot choose, but questioned how one does indeed choose. You questioned the choice made in the Cambridge Grammar of English and offered an alternative. What was you alternative choice based on?
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| But it is less common in modern edited prose than non-defining "which"; that perhaps makes it seem odd. |
As daily we are supposed to be in touch with the spoken language more than the written, why would "that" used in non-defing clauses, seem "odd" when spoken? |
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Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017
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| #20 (permalink) Fri Jul 25, 2008 22:34 pm About non-restrictive relative, "that" |
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| Molly wrote: |
What was you alternative choice based on?
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Many years' unwilling experience of unnecessary meetings.
| Molly wrote: |
| why would "that" used in non-defing clauses, seem "odd" when spoken? |
My comment referred to modern edited prose.
MrP |
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MrPedantic
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 1326
Location: Southern England
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| waste away | concerns between... |
