Dont you think gramatical rules are sometimes deceptive

Kuti

hi,i am Kuti.I study English Language Teaching which is so difficult to get used to in Turkey.as most of you know that gramatical rules we have been taking since we were in secondry school are sometimes used so differently in some questions that we cant help thinking how it can be Sad

for example in one text book i have read some rules about Present Perfect Con that are completly the way i know...but later then i come across another explanation which is totally irrelevant.however when i ask my tutors they all say both usages can be used in different terms..it s becouse of that i personally think that one day we will not be able to say there is something wrong gramatically...

thanks in advance for your ideas
kuti..

Yo

thats why we all learn stuff

Mosteque

As far as i understrand you, this is what i hate about tests.
Sometimes we may put completely different answer to what is included in the key. And although our answer is proper too, it's not what the author of the test meant or thought would be proper. And you score an error even though there was nothing wrong with your idea of the answer.

Grammar rules are very deceiving sometimes......
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Kuti · Mon Mar 21, 2005 16:55 pm *Definetely*

hi you actually had understood exactly what i meant..there are some rules that is so far beyond the grammatical rules;make the question right even though you say it can never be!!!
it s really wise of you see ya..

Torsten · Mon Mar 21, 2005 17:36 pm *Grammar rules*

So what is the solution? I think if you learn another language it's very important to observe and listen. Show some respect to those people who have grown up with their language. After all they decide what is proper English. There are not many hard rules in English - it's a very flexible and fast developing language. However, this doesn't mean that everybody should try and come up with their own grammar rules because then we would end up in chaos.
Before you can define what is proper English and what is not, you should try and absorb as much of the language as possible. Listen to an authentic source on a regular basis. Read newspaper articles, essays and books in English. Exchange letters or emails with speakers of English. And most importantly: Be specific! What sentence or phrase are you referring to? Present Continuous/Present Progressive is a very broad topic that has so many aspects - what exactly do you want to know?
Also, you can find out yourself what is proper English and what is not: Type in the combination "gramatical rules" into Google and see what comes up. Then do the same with the phrase "grammar rules". Compare the results. Draw a conclusion.
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TOEIC Preparation & TOEIC Vocabulary

Kuti · Mon Mar 21, 2005 21:26 pm *I partly agree with you...*

first of all nice to meet you at last i have been thinking to send you message about this for a long time...
you are right with the point that we should get benefit from the wide range of availibilities that s presented by English, furthermore i can tell you easily that i always carry out the things you have talked about.i
have been working in a five stars hotel for five years and i have lot s of experiences having relationship with different people from all over the word which helps me to get the opportunity to see the usages of English..i also read daily news as much as i can..Ofcourse these are so effective to learn the different usages of spoken and writen English..However the main point that i wanted to express actually a little bit different.when we get a TOEFL TOEIC or any other exams we can mostly face with the problems caused by grammatical rules which we are taught since we first started to learn English..as i mentioned in my first forum we can not say(especially in the exam)that something is wrong grammatically becouse it has really wide range of possible usages....

Rich7 · Tue Mar 22, 2005 20:52 pm *I partly agree with you...*

Kuti

hi and nice to meet you too..Initially i would like to thank you for helping me to see my tiny mistakes and making me be aware of my rights and wrongs...
To be honest i have never said that Mr Torsten is wrong or unfair about my post.i have just said that he has just misunderstood my point of view.also i have never said that i am perfect somehow Sad

of course we should try to get as many input as we can!!!Moreover;how old are you ,if i may ask?and was your English knowledge perfect at the age of 21?
thank you again Mr Rich
hope us share our ideas regulary....

Torsten · Wed Mar 23, 2005 12:57 pm *Learning grammar*

Good morning Kuti, Richard and all friends of the English language! It is very good to see that we have several discussions going on. Kuti is right - learning is a process and it's not so much about proving what is right and what is wrong but rather how we can exchange experiences and benefit from each other. Richard said that we need a lot of input (input is uncountable so it's either much input or lots of input/a lot of input) and I absolutely agree with him. Kuti is very active and that means he is improving his English on a daily basis. As you know, grammar is part of a language and we should try to absorb as many patterns as possible. Listen to the BBC often and you will see that your grammar improves over time as your mind copies entire sentences. Then you will be able to reproduce those sentences or parts of them. This is a much more effective method of learning grammar than trying to cram all those rules into your head...
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Test Of English for International Communication
TOEIC Preparation & TOEIC Vocabulary

Mosteque

Very good point Torsten:)
I'd also recommend reading books aloud. In addition to hearing your mistakes you see sentences and it's much easier to remember them this way than only from hearing them on TV.
Actually this is my way of learning english and although i've been learning only for 3 years I think i can be proud of my knowledge. I know i still make a lot of stupid mistakes but i'm working over my english every single day; reading books, listening to audio books, watching TV and taking an active part in this forum for instance.
I'd also recommend english spoken chats which present great opportunity to check ourselves.
The only snag is, at least in my case, that i'm unable of speaking fluently or I don't speak as good as I write which makes me really angry when I hear myself Very Happy

I can blame it on lack of opportunities..... and unfortunately on my being a bit bashful ;P
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Kuti · Wed Mar 23, 2005 18:41 pm *I will do my best...*

Hi Mr Torsten and Mosteque first of all i would like to stress that i absolutely agree with you about using as many input as we can to increase our knowledge..this must be the way that we should follow so as to be a perfect English learner and teacher..now i can see the reason why we sometimes fail in grammar exams and think that grammar is deceptive..

Yes i work in a five-star hotel,however i think it is just the way i improve myself in spoken English.Maybe i should try to get benefit from any input that has relationship with English..It will be the best way to understand the English thoroughly..
I want to finish my words with a saying which summarises all we have been saying:''If you want to be the master of the success,you have to be the slave of studying''

Thank you all..

Torsten · Wed Mar 23, 2005 21:54 pm *Reading texts aloud*

Torsten · Wed Mar 23, 2005 22:34 pm *A lot of input*

Kuti · Thu Mar 24, 2005 1:35 am *Absolutely*

hi Mr Torsten it is exactly as you say i work in the five-star hotel as a part time job.and yes i am responsible for the front office shortly the reception.Regarding my position i do check in-check out,arrange the reservations properly,welcome tourists,give them information on all hotel facilities and resort facilities,tours and excursions and so on..
The hotel mostly welcome the Irish tourists and i think there is no need to tell you about their accent!To be honest in the beginning,i wasnt able to understand so many things from the way they talked.but now i can tell i undrestand them easily as i get used to.They speak quite fast,swallow some letters, besides;they make complicated senteces which sometimes i am surprised a moment and say how can they create this kind of sentence..

About the success;
speaking English and seeing that i can help people that way makes me feel glad and happy.And i know that this will be very helpfull for my prospect.as you say there are a lot of INPUT,this is only one of them.Ihave a goal i am going to do anything possible in order to realise it..i believe thanks to you,your friends and everybody who are in this site,it will be much easier than ever..

thanks million..

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