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 #62 (permalink) Mon Aug 18, 2008 16:31 pm Georgian/Russian/South Ossetian Crisis |
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I was immensely relieved to hear from Pamela. Poor Pamela is right in the thick of things. :(
What's the current situation, Pamela? Has the bombing and killing stopped in your immediate area? Do you think the people who fled will ever return to their homes and/or homeland?
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Yankee
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| #63 (permalink) Mon Aug 18, 2008 16:54 pm Russian Agressors, leave my Country, or You all gone dye! |
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| Torsten wrote: |
| very biased language. |
I couldn't agree with you more, Torsten! It's hard to take someone seriously who appears to be nothing more than a bigot.
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Yankee
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| #64 (permalink) Mon Aug 18, 2008 17:07 pm Russian Agressors, leave my Country, or You all gone dye! |
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| Torsten wrote: |
| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| Here is an article on the subject that was written by a former US intelligence officer. I find it quite observant, and my experience with this man's writing is that it nearly always turns out to be true. |
The article probably contains some information that resemble the truth but it's written in a very biased language. Take a look at the first sentence:
| Quote: |
| The Russians are alcohol-sodden bar barians, but now and then they vomit up a genius. |
What kind of reaction do you expect if you start an article with a sentence like this? |
Of course, the article wasn't aimed at Russians and Georgians.
| Torsten wrote: |
| The entire article smacks of rather cheap propaganda. Ralph Peters seems to be very bitter man who thinks he can score some points by illustrating Putin and the Russians as very bad guys. There is nothing in that article that contributes to solving the current crisis. On the contrary, articles like this make things worse so why read it? Many Americans don't like it it, if somebody says that one of the reasons why the US invaded Iraq was the fact that Iraq is an oil rich country. What makes you think Ralph Peters' rhetoric will speed up the peace process in Georgia? |
You're too focused on his language and not focused enough on the facts he presents.
1. Russia pretended that they were reacting to Georgian action in South Ossetia, but they had been preparing for the attack for months in advance.
2. Russia had bussed the "refugees" out before the attack began.
3. Sarkozy got a Neville Chamberlain style ceasefire treaty signed, which the Russians simply ignored as they continued to kill people.
4. There's more if you get past the vocabulary and read what he is saying.
Putin is using a chapter out of the Hitler/Stalin playbook. Move ethnic Russians (or Germans) into a neighboring country, or exploit their presence there, to set up phony nationalist movements, and then send your military in to occupy the neighboring country and overthrow the government in order to protect your "ethnic kinsmen". Sign any treaty the West puts under your nose and then just ignore it.
Nothing is going to "help resolve" the problem of Georgia, because Russia doesn't want the problem solved to the benefit of the Georgians or anyone other than Russia. The only acceptable solution to the current Russian government will be the replacement of the elected government of Georgia with a puppet dictatorship and/or re-annexation of Georgia. They will try the same with the Baltic states and with Ukraine if this works. |
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Jamie (K)
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| #65 (permalink) Mon Aug 18, 2008 17:16 pm Georgian/Russian/South Ossetian Crisis |
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Jamie, now that you want to talk about facts and get "past the vocabulary", can you please answer these questions: What event triggered the Russian invasion? Do you think that Georgia's military actions in South Ossetia will have an impact on Georgia's chances to join NATO? In other words, how happy was the US administration about Saakashvilli's decision to send his troops into South Ossetia?
Also, do you think that the type of language you use in an argument determines the reaction you get from your counterpart?
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Torsten
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| #66 (permalink) Mon Aug 18, 2008 17:30 pm Georgian/Russian/South Ossetian Crisis |
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U.S. administration should be quite happy to have sensed russian military power without direct confrontation.
I agree with Jamie (K)'s last post. |
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Ya.no.puedo.mas
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| #67 (permalink) Mon Aug 18, 2008 18:08 pm Georgian/Russian/South Ossetian Crisis |
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Here's how I see it:
Russia is essentially doing what the United States has done for years, and yet when Russia does it -- on the basis of actually protecting its own citizens -- the international community freaks out. What about Vietnam, El Salvador, Panama, Grenada, Iraq, the freaking Spanish-American war, etc...? Don't you realize that the US has been doing this sort of thing for well over a hundred years (that is to say, invading another sovreign country for this reason or that, "regime change", whatever) , and that we are likely the LAST people who should have any moral high ground on which to wave our finger at Russia and say "No, we can do it but you can't!" .. ?
And as for the rest of Europe, why is it that they can only very quietly object to American imperialism, and yet when Russia actually does its duty and responds to claims of ethnic cleansing against Russians in a territory wherein the people DO NOT WISH TO BE A PART OF GEORGIA IN THE FIRST PLACE, they cry foul and act as though this is something unprecedented and without cause?
So why is Russia always on the wrong end of this blatant double standard? |
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Taeglich
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| #68 (permalink) Mon Aug 18, 2008 18:08 pm Georgian/Russian/South Ossetian Crisis |
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| Yankee wrote: |
I was immensely relieved to hear from Pamela. Poor Pamela is right in the thick of things. :(
What's the current situation, Pamela? Has the bombing and killing stopped in your immediate area? Do you think the people who fled will ever return to their homes and/or homeland?
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Hi Amy and thanks for your concern!
My friends say the situation has stabilized (let's hope for a long while) and a great many of refugees are coming back home. I doubt that all of them will return as many of them have buried their relatives in their gardens. :cry: It's appalling.
P.S. I'll comment on the whole situation a bit later... |
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 Pamela
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| #69 (permalink) Mon Aug 18, 2008 19:47 pm Georgian/Russian/South Ossetian Crisis |
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| Taeglich wrote: |
Here's how I see it:
Russia is essentially doing what the United States has done for years, and yet when Russia does it -- on the basis of actually protecting its own citizens -- the international community freaks out. |
Protecting its own citizens: Is any Russian living in any country anywhere a Russian citizen? Are the descendants of Russians whom Stalin moved to Georgia, Latvia, Lithuania in order to displace the indigenous populations Russian citizens? Does Russia have the right to attack and occupy any country where Russian-speaking people live?
By your logic, then, the Nazi invasion of Czechoslovakia was justified, right?
This is the disturbing thing about Germans: They like to wag their fingers at the US and other democracies, claiming that they're the big experts on the horrors and immorality of war and fascism because theirs used to be a fascist, warmongering nation. However, it's disturbingly clear that many, maybe most Germans -- including the younger generations -- are still Nazis at heart. The reason is that whenever there is a conflict between a democracy and a genocidal dictatorship, German public opinion sides with the genocidal dictatorship. They sided with the Soviets, they sided with the Cubans, they sided with the Sandinistas, with the Viet Kong, with the Palestinians, with the bloody military dictators of Grenada, with the bloody totalitarian insurgents in El Salvador, and now they're siding with the dictator Putin against the democracy of Georgia.
| Taeglich wrote: |
| What about Vietnam, |
The existing Vietnamese government had a military alliance with the US that obligated the US to come to its assistance. It was under attack by Russian- and Chinese-backed troops that were trying to overthrow it and impose a dictatorship. The importance of winning the war in Indo-China (which we didn't; we retreated) should be obvious to you by the fact that when the Russian- and Chinese-backed troops won in Vietnam, they proceeded to win in Laos and Cambodia, in the latter of which they murdered a third of the population. In Laos they went on a genocide campaign against the neolithic indigenous mountain peoples, using Soviet-supplied biological toxins.
| Taeglich wrote: |
| El Salvador, |
Again, insurgents backed by Russia, Cuba and Nicaragua were trying to overthrow the existing government. We had already seen a bloodbath, forced marches and labor camps in Nicaragua, and we didn't need more of that. This is especially true since the ultimate goal was to make all of Central America, and even Mexico, a Soviet satellite. So, again, the Salvadoran government was fighting Russian imperialism, much as the Georgians are doing today.
The country was being run by a dictator who had been spying for the Soviets and the Cubans. He was also involved in drug trafficking, racketeering and money-laundering. He was able to cause problems in international shipping -- even cripple the world economy -- through the Panama canal, so we took him out and arrested him. When he is finished with his prison sentence in the US, he is supposed to be extradited to France, where he is to be tried by the French on further criminal charges. You don't need a drug trafficker officially running a country. After all, who elected him?
There had been a violent Cuban-backed coup d'état, complete with confiscation of property and murders. The dictator who took over was eventually murdered and replaced with a military dictator who set a curfew and shoot-on-sight orders. By the time the US military, along with the armies of several other Caribbean nations invaded, the country was already a Cuban satellite and the Cubans had been building a military air base there to strike other Caribbean nations. This was one of the reasons the other nations felt threatened and requested and participated in the attack.
| Taeglich wrote: |
| Don't you realize that the US has been doing this sort of thing for well over a hundred years (that is to say, invading another sovreign country for this reason or that, "regime change", whatever) , and that we are likely the LAST people who should have any moral high ground on which to wave our finger at Russia and say "No, we can do it but you can't!" .. ? |
You are evidently unable to make moral distinctions. You treat all invasions as if they were the same thing, and you make no distinction between liberal democracies and totalitarian dictatorships.
| Taeglich wrote: |
| And as for the rest of Europe, why is it that they can only very quietly object to American imperialism, and yet when Russia actually does its duty and responds to claims of ethnic cleansing against Russians in a territory wherein the people DO NOT WISH TO BE A PART OF GEORGIA IN THE FIRST PLACE, they cry foul and act as though this is something unprecedented and without cause? |
Maybe there's no double standard, and you just don't know very much about politics or history. One thing is clear, though. You're a fan of dictators and don't care much about human rights. |
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Jamie (K)
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| #70 (permalink) Mon Aug 18, 2008 19:53 pm Russian Agressors, leave my Country, or You all gone dye! |
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| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| Of course, the article wasn't aimed at Russians and Georgians. |
Are you saying that the article was aimed at Americans who want to know more about the situation in Georgia? If so, do you think that the language of the article has an impact on the reader's opinions? I mean if you really want to focus on the facts, why would you tell your readers that "the Russians are alcohol-sodden bar barians"? Very factual indeed. Saying that "Putin is using a chapter out of the Hitler/Stalin playbook" might be a fact but this statement doesn't contribute to finding a solution. It hurts the pride of many Russians and triggers a negative reaction. If I say "the US invaded Iraq and has occupied this sovereign country ever since" I'm stating a fact. Does this statement help to solve the situation?
| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| Nothing is going to "help resolve" the problem of Georgia, because Russia doesn't want the problem solved to the benefit of the Georgians or anyone other than Russia. |
If nothing is going to help resolve the problem of Georgia, why are we discussing this topic?
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Torsten
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| #71 (permalink) Mon Aug 18, 2008 20:04 pm Georgian/Russian/South Ossetian Crisis |
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| Torsten wrote: |
| What event triggered the Russian invasion? |
The event that triggered the Russian invasion was Georgia having a pro-Western democracy that wanted to join a Western alliance for protection against Russia. Russia set up bogus separatist groups, prepared months ahead for the invasion, and had its proxy groups provoke a Georgian attack, the Georgian government fell for the trap, and Russia went in. It's all very much like the way Hitler arranged to attack Poland.
| Torsten wrote: |
| Do you think that Georgia's military actions in South Ossetia will have an impact on Georgia's chances to join NATO? In other words, how happy was the US administration about Saakashvilli's decision to send his troops into South Ossetia? |
I don't know, but I know Germany will oppose letting Georgia into NATO. The Germans have made themselves highly dependent on Russian oil shipments; the former German chancellor, Gerhard Schröder, is on the Kremlin payroll now; and the Germans have tended to side with dictatorships all over the world in preference to democracies. Also, the Germans as a nation are usually not willing to sacrifice for any kind of higher principle or anything else that will reduce their daily "Gemütlichkeit". So what the Russians want, Germany will give them. I don't know about the rest of the NATO countries.
| Torsten wrote: |
| Also, do you think that the type of language you use in an argument determines the reaction you get from your counterpart? |
Sometimes yes, but often people are hostile no matter what kind of language you use. |
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Jamie (K)
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| #72 (permalink) Mon Aug 18, 2008 20:09 pm Russian Agressors, leave my Country, or You all gone dye! |
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| Torsten wrote: |
| Saying that "Putin is using a chapter out of the Hitler/Stalin playbook" might be a fact but this statement doesn't contribute to finding a solution. |
Anything factual contributes to finding a solution. Sugar-coating or hiding facts does not contribute to finding a solution. We know this from Neville Chamberlain.
| Torsten wrote: |
| It hurts the pride of many Russians and triggers a negative reaction. |
Many things hurt our pride, but if they are true, we need to admit them.
| Torsten wrote: |
| If I say "the US invaded Iraq and has occupied this sovereign country ever since" I'm stating a fact. Does this statement help to solve the situation? |
It neither helps nor hurts.
| Torsten wrote: |
| If nothing is going to help resolve the problem of Georgia, why are we discussing this topic? |
I don't know. Why? |
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Jamie (K)
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| #73 (permalink) Mon Aug 18, 2008 21:24 pm Georgian/Russian/South Ossetian Crisis |
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| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| The Germans have made themselves highly dependent on Russian oil shipments; the former German chancellor, Gerhard Schröder, is on the Kremlin payroll now; and the Germans have tended to side with dictatorships all over the world in preference to democracies. Also, the Germans as a nation are usually not willing to sacrifice for any kind of higher principle |
Hi Jamie, and apologies for breaking the enemy lines. I know that there have been quite a few oil-war-democracy-sublimity discussions here, and I can't help but wonder whether we're applying double standards by saying 'You budge because of oil and we fight for peace in Persia and are therefore entitled to disregard prisoner of war conventions that we signed in Geneva "agreeing that it was necessary to prevent inhumane treatment of prisoners and the use of weapons causing unnecessary harm" since we're the chosen ones who follow a higher principle.
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Ralf
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| #74 (permalink) Mon Aug 18, 2008 22:14 pm Georgian/Russian/South Ossetian Crisis |
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| Ralf wrote: |
| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| The Germans have made themselves highly dependent on Russian oil shipments; the former German chancellor, Gerhard Schröder, is on the Kremlin payroll now; and the Germans have tended to side with dictatorships all over the world in preference to democracies. Also, the Germans as a nation are usually not willing to sacrifice for any kind of higher principle |
Hi Jamie, and apologies for breaking the enemy lines. I know that there have been quite a few oil-war-democracy-sublimity discussions here, and I can't help but wonder whether we're applying double standards by saying 'You budge because of oil and we fight for peace in Persia and are therefore entitled to disregard prisoner of war conventions that we signed in Geneva "agreeing that it was necessary to prevent inhumane treatment of prisoners and the use of weapons causing unnecessary harm" since we're the chosen ones who follow a higher principle. |
The people held in Guantanamo or whatever other facility you're referring to do not come under the definition of prisoners of war under the Geneva protocols, because they have violated this section:
| Quote: |
4.1.2 Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, provided that they fulfill all of the following conditions:
-- that of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
-- that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance (there are limited exceptions to this among countries who observe the 1977 Protocol I);
-- that of carrying arms openly;
-- that of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war. |
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Jamie (K)
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| #75 (permalink) Mon Aug 18, 2008 22:26 pm Georgian/Russian/South Ossetian Crisis |
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| Quote: |
| Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements |
Yeah, I never understood how one could declare a whole military opposition guilty of guerilla warfare after invading their territory. Don't get me wrong, I don't think the Taliban are much better than the Nazis, but even SS soldiers were treated more humanely.
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