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 #17 (permalink) Tue Sep 02, 2008 11:44 am Birth (The Republican candidate for US vice president, Sarah Palin...) |
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| Quote: |
| But these are the feelings of a normal person about the hypothetical possibility of being disabled, not the feelings of a disabled person about a real disability. |
Maybe we should invite some of the latter here? Maybe LS is disabled. Do you know for sure LS isn't?
BTW, what does "normal person" mean in your idiolect, Jamie? And me, how do you know I'm not disabled? |
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Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017
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| #18 (permalink) Tue Sep 02, 2008 12:08 pm Birth (The Republican candidate for US vice president, Sarah Palin...) |
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| Quote: |
| Maybe I'll ask the thalidomide victim I know whether he is happy or not. |
I thought one of your many "I-knows" would appear. Are you saying that your "friend's" view would be a representation of all Thalidomide victims? |
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Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017
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| #19 (permalink) Tue Sep 02, 2008 12:11 pm Birth (The Republican candidate for US vice president, Sarah Palin...) |
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| Quote: |
| Do you think that being black is a disability that warrants abortion? Some people do. |
I think your many "I-knows" give the rest of us no chance to survive in this discussion and in many others.
| Quote: |
| She felt that the baby and she would have too many problems because the baby would be black, so she thought they would both be better off if the baby were dead. (Of course, now, years later, the guilt this woman carries makes her behave in weird ways.) |
Do you know the guilt some parents of disabled adults feel? Do you know the ways some of those parents behave? |
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Molly
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| #20 (permalink) Tue Sep 02, 2008 18:30 pm Birth (The Republican candidate for US vice president, Sarah Palin...) |
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No... which is answer enough that it's better to be alive, however difficult life is, than to be dead and given no chance to live. And in cases where the person decides to end his own life, or wants to die, at least he was given the chance to DECIDE that for HIMSELF... and not have death forced on him without a say of his own.
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Billie Jean is not my lover. Hee. |
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Prezbucky
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| #21 (permalink) Tue Sep 02, 2008 18:36 pm Birth (The Republican candidate for US vice president, Sarah Palin...) |
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I think it's arrogant of us to assume that we know how a person's life will turn out (I have yet to meet a reliable fortune-teller), or that the person won't even want the chance to live.
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Billie Jean is not my lover. Hee. |
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Prezbucky
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Location: Nashville, TN (USA)
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| #22 (permalink) Tue Sep 02, 2008 18:43 pm Birth (The Republican candidate for US vice president, Sarah Palin...) |
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| prezbucky wrote: |
| I think it's arrogant of us to assume that we know how a person's life will turn out (I have yet to meet a reliable fortune-teller), or that the person won't even want the chance to live. |
Another thing:
If we have a normal kid and he then gets into an accident and loses an arm or becomes a paraplegic, do we explain to him that he'll have a bad life and then euthanize him?
If Dad gets beaten up by some thugs on the street downtown and suffers brain damage, do we say, "Sorry, Dad, you're not smart anymore, so you'll have a bad life," and then euthanize him? |
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Jamie (K)
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Joined: 24 Feb 2006
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Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| #23 (permalink) Tue Sep 02, 2008 22:45 pm Birth (The Republican candidate for US vice president, Sarah Palin...) |
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| So, Jamie and Prez, no abortion under any circumstances is your stance, is it? |
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Molly
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| #24 (permalink) Tue Sep 02, 2008 23:06 pm Birth (The Republican candidate for US vice president, Sarah Palin...) |
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no, not mine. i had a feeling you'd try to put words in my mouth. I'm saying that it's invalid to abort a child based on this line of reasoning -- that the child should be aborted because he'll have a difficult life (or so the parents assume).
_________________
Billie Jean is not my lover. Hee. |
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Prezbucky
I'm a Communicator ;-)
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Location: Nashville, TN (USA)
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| #25 (permalink) Tue Sep 02, 2008 23:11 pm Birth (The Republican candidate for US vice president, Sarah Palin...) |
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| prezbucky wrote: |
| I'm saying that it's invalid to abort a child based on this line of reasoning -- that the child should be aborted because he'll have a difficult life (or so the parents assume). |
And what do you think those assumptions are based on? |
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Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017
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| #26 (permalink) Wed Sep 03, 2008 0:10 am Birth (The Republican candidate for US vice president, Sarah Palin...) |
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| Molly wrote: |
| prezbucky wrote: |
| I'm saying that it's invalid to abort a child based on this line of reasoning -- that the child should be aborted because he'll have a difficult life (or so the parents assume). |
And what do you think those assumptions are based on? |
Someone's imagination. |
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Jamie (K)
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| #27 (permalink) Wed Sep 03, 2008 0:12 am Birth (The Republican candidate for US vice president, Sarah Palin...) |
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| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| Someone's imagination. |
And that imagination is influenced by? |
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Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017
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| #28 (permalink) Wed Sep 03, 2008 0:20 am Birth (The Republican candidate for US vice president, Sarah Palin...) |
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| Molly wrote: |
| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| Someone's imagination. |
And that imagination is influenced by? |
Advocacy in the press and folk statistics.
Sometimes it's influenced by a doctor who thinks this "n****r" already has enough kids and shouldn't have any more. He cooks up some kind of diagnosis and convinces the mother that the kid is going to be a mess and that she should abort it and not have any more. Sometimes the mother arrives for an appointment at an abortion clinic (big business in the US), is intercepted by the prolifers before she goes in, is convinced not to have the abortion, and the child is born normal. |
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Jamie (K)
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Joined: 24 Feb 2006
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Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| #29 (permalink) Wed Sep 03, 2008 7:29 am Birth (The Republican candidate for US vice president, Sarah Palin...) |
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So, none of this "imagining" is based on reality, right, Jamie -for example, on the existing negative stereotypes, created by your so called "normal" people, of disabled people?
Going back to your original focus, what is quality of life like for most down syndrome sufferers in the USA? How about in China?
| Quote: |
| Sometimes the mother arrives for an appointment at an abortion clinic (big business in the US), is intercepted by the prolifers before she goes in, is convinced not to have the abortion, and the child is born normal. |
And do those prolifers then take part in the upbringing of the child? And how can we force a woman who has been convinced by the prolifers to give birth to the disabled child - a child she may dread and hate - to then love that child?
I'm a big supporter of getting disabled people involved in such discussions. If you know someone who is disabled, why not ask them to join in here?
Till, then, we should consider the words of this woman:
"I can't get rid of my Down's syndrome, but you can't get rid of my happiness. You can't get rid of the happiness I give others either. It's doctors like you that want to test pregnant women and stop people like me being born. Together with my family and friends I have fought to prevent my separation from normal society. I have fought for my rights... I may have Down's syndrome but I am a person first."
http://www.spuc.org.uk/students/abortion/disability
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And this one:
Abortion on the grounds of fetal disability smacks of a number of things that many liberals find unacceptable. It is judgemental and value-laden because, in opting to end the pregnancy, the woman says that while she was prepared to raise an able child she is not prepared to raise a disabled one. In opting to abort an abnormal fetus a woman is clearly saying that although she wanted a child, she does not want one on the terms that nature has offered. There are many who find it difficult to accept that some women should take control of their own destiny in this way.
http://www.prochoiceforum.org.uk/comm78.asp |
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Molly
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