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#2 (permalink) Mon Sep 01, 2008 16:09 pm Language competence. Widening, or getting behind, the labels. |
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| Molly wrote: |
| "rather than being classified as a ‘native speaker’ of English, someone like me would be considered a ‘relatively, though by no means always, competent user’ of something which might be defined along the lines of a conglomerate of Englishmiddle class, + academic, + institutional, + international, with specialized cultural reference connected with applied linguistics, a particular biography as a past curriculum consultant in the ‘developing world’ and with long-standing social, familial and emotional contacts with the Middle East – and so on." |
This basically means that he's a competent native speaker.
Please compare:
1. John is a 23 year old Englishman from London.
2. John doesn't like being pigeonholed this way. He tells people that he is from Albion +alive +male +born 21/07/1985 +southern +urban +neurotic +commuting +gap-minding +jug-eared. _________________ Test of English as a Foreign Language TOEFL Preparation & TOEFL Vocabulary Learn more: How to Become an English Teacher |
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Ralf Language Coach

Joined: 20 Apr 2006 Posts: 1485 Location: EU (Ireland and Germany)
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#3 (permalink) Mon Sep 01, 2008 22:14 pm Language competence. Widening, or getting behind, the labels. |
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Thanks for that humorous observation, Ralf. What's your reply to this part of my post?
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| If you had to describe your English language competence in more than the regular ways, e.g. native-speaker, nonnative-speaker, advanced/intermediate/beginner level speaker, etc. how would you do it? |
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Molly I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008 Posts: 4017
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#4 (permalink) Mon Sep 01, 2008 22:57 pm Language competence. Widening, or getting behind, the labels. |
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| Molly wrote: |
| If you had to describe your English language competence in more than the regular ways, e.g. native-speaker, nonnative-speaker, advanced/intermediate/beginner level speaker, etc. how would you do it? |
I'm an English speaker +born in Germany +raised in Ireland +educated middle-class +exposed to linguistic heat sources +good accent mimic.
And you? Honestly... _________________ Test of English as a Foreign Language TOEFL Preparation & TOEFL Vocabulary Learn more: How to Become an English Teacher |
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Ralf Language Coach

Joined: 20 Apr 2006 Posts: 1485 Location: EU (Ireland and Germany)
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#5 (permalink) Mon Sep 01, 2008 23:12 pm Language competence. Widening, or getting behind, the labels. |
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| Ralf wrote: |
| Molly wrote: |
| If you had to describe your English language competence in more than the regular ways, e.g. native-speaker, nonnative-speaker, advanced/intermediate/beginner level speaker, etc. how would you do it? |
I'm an English speaker +born in Germany +raised in Ireland +educated middle-class +exposed to linguistic heat sources +good accent mimic
And you? Honestly... |
I'm a Batu speaker whose mother, in her second marriage, married well, if late. Stepfather influenced Nigerian and British English + nursing discourse + native-speaker husband tuition and lots of ESL classes and doing quite well thank you with the English language but still a long way to go.
Would you also apply this to yourself?
| Quote: |
| a ‘relatively, though by no means always, competent user’ |
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Molly I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008 Posts: 4017
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#6 (permalink) Mon Sep 01, 2008 23:25 pm Language competence. Widening, or getting behind, the labels. |
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| Molly wrote: |
Would you also apply this to yourself?
a ‘relatively, though by no means always, competent user’ |
Yes, I would. But I don't see how this definition contradicts the term 'native speaker'. It only contradicts your wry notion that native speakers should not be privileged to express their sentiments on standard usage.
What do you think about this? - every learner should be allowed to write dictionary entries that are used to teach other learners how to use English. And those should then in turn be entitled to re-render the dictionary! _________________ Test of English as a Foreign Language TOEFL Preparation & TOEFL Vocabulary Learn more: How to Become an English Teacher |
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Ralf Language Coach

Joined: 20 Apr 2006 Posts: 1485 Location: EU (Ireland and Germany)
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#7 (permalink) Mon Sep 01, 2008 23:29 pm Language competence. Widening, or getting behind, the labels. |
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| Yes, I would. But I don't see how this definition contradicts the term native speaker. |
I've not heard many native-speakers in the field of English language education admit the same.
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| What do you think about this? - every learner should be allowed to write dictionary entries that are used to teach other learners how to use English. And those should then in turn be entitled to re-render the dictionary! |
Would you allow any native-speaker to do the same? |
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Molly I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008 Posts: 4017
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#8 (permalink) Mon Sep 01, 2008 23:34 pm Language competence. Widening, or getting behind, the labels. |
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| Molly wrote: |
| Quote: |
| What do you think about this? - every learner should be allowed to write dictionary entries that are used to teach other learners how to use English. And those should then in turn be entitled to re-render the dictionary! |
Would you allow any native-speaker to do the same? |
Here we go again. Experts, yes. Please don't ask me who those experts are.
Care to answer my question? _________________ Test of English as a Foreign Language TOEFL Preparation & TOEFL Vocabulary Learn more: How to Become an English Teacher |
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Ralf Language Coach

Joined: 20 Apr 2006 Posts: 1485 Location: EU (Ireland and Germany)
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#9 (permalink) Tue Sep 02, 2008 0:49 am The goose and the gander |
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| Molly wrote: |
| + native-speaker husband |
This of course is one of the prohibited terms.
MrP |
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MrPedantic I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 13 Oct 2006 Posts: 1319 Location: Southern England
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#10 (permalink) Tue Sep 02, 2008 8:33 am Language competence. Widening, or getting behind, the labels. |
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| Quote: |
| Experts, yes. Please don't ask me who those experts are. |
I'd say the same to you regarding your question. Expert learners - don't ask me who they are - might indeed be qualified enough to do what you suggest, right? |
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Molly I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008 Posts: 4017
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#11 (permalink) Tue Sep 02, 2008 8:34 am The goose and the gander |
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The thread question is:
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| If you had to describe your English language competence in more than the regular ways, e.g. native-speaker, nonnative-speaker, advanced/intermediate/beginner level speaker, etc. how would you do it? |
Care to reply to it, MrP? |
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Molly I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008 Posts: 4017
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#12 (permalink) Tue Sep 02, 2008 23:09 pm Language competence. Widening, or getting behind, the labels. |
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Well, M., in terms of vocabulary, grammar, phrasing, idiom, spelling, punctuation, and of course allusion (or perhaps that should be "hinterland"), I would say that your style of English and mine are quite similar. From which I infer that you and I probably have quite similar backgrounds.
So in answer to your question:
| Molly wrote: |
I'm a Batu speaker whose mother, in her second marriage, married well, if late. Stepfather influenced Nigerian and British English + nursing discourse + native-speaker husband tuition and lots of ESL classes and doing quite well thank you with the English language but still a long way to go.
Would you also apply this to yourself?
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I suppose yes; that must apply to me too.
MrP |
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MrPedantic I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 13 Oct 2006 Posts: 1319 Location: Southern England
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#13 (permalink) Tue Sep 02, 2008 23:14 pm Language competence. Widening, or getting behind, the labels. |
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| Quote: |
| Well, M., in terms of vocabulary, grammar, phrasing, idiom, spelling, punctuation, and of course allusion (or perhaps that should be "hinterland"), I would say that your style of English and mine are quite similar. |
You are of course referring to the English I use here, right? Mind, on one side of things, you do sound awfully like our ward matron at times. So there may indeed be some influence from nursing in your language make up.
MrP, do you find Ralf's usage quite similar to your own? |
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Molly I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008 Posts: 4017
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#14 (permalink) Tue Sep 02, 2008 23:20 pm Language competence. Widening, or getting behind, the labels. |
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| Hey, Ralf, do you feel that being born in Germany has influenced, or influences, any part of your English usage in any way? |
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Molly I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008 Posts: 4017
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#15 (permalink) Wed Sep 03, 2008 16:46 pm Language competence. Widening, or getting behind, the labels. |
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| Molly wrote: |
| Hey, Ralf, do you feel that being born in Germany has influenced, or influences, any part of your English usage in any way? |
Not the birth itself, but maybe attending kindergarten. These days, using German on a daily basis leads to occasional lapses in English.
Proof for your theory about non-native speaker serviceability? _________________ Test of English as a Foreign Language TOEFL Preparation & TOEFL Vocabulary Learn more: How to Become an English Teacher |
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Ralf Language Coach

Joined: 20 Apr 2006 Posts: 1485 Location: EU (Ireland and Germany)
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