What does "slang" mean?

[Linda]

Hello everyone,
I think that discussing the title of these tests is worth doing; however, I don't know if we will ever find a "suitable" or "correct" name for these tests. As usual, as much as ESL learners and teachers would like, putting any type of expression, grammar and syntax rules etc. into a neat, tidy, little box with no air holes is nearly impossible to do in the English language. Not only does a subjective aspect play a role but there are exceptions to nearly every rule.

As well, the word 'idiom' is defined as: "b: the syntactical, grammatical, or structural form peculiar to a language 2: an expression in the usage of a language that is peculiar to itself either grammatically (as no, it wasn't me) or in having a meaning that cannot be derived from the conjoined meanings of its elements (as Monday week for “the Monday a week after next Monday”).

'Slang" is defined as "language peculiar to a particular group: as a: argot b: jargon 2: an informal nonstandard vocabulary composed typically of coinages, arbitrarily changed words, and extravagant, forced, or facetious figures of speech."

These definitions are very similar and can and do encompass a wide variety of sentences. phrases, words etc.

These tests are meant to not only test the students' knowledge about common expressions and idioms but also to show the students how one would go about using these expressions in everyday English.

By definition, it seems that the title "English Slang Idioms" works. However, I would like more feedback about this matter.
_________________
One Way of Learning English Grammar
Learn English with Linda Arlia

[Yankee]

[Linda]

Hi Amy,
It seems you are trying to answer a question that many English teachers, tutors and students, alike, have tried to answer in the past.
Even Mister Micawber wrote (about the difference between idioms and slang in his opinion):

"No difference, I think, other than that which distinguishes idioms (groups of words whose meaning has changed from the sum of its individual words)."

http://www.english-test.net/forum/ftopic25776.html

That's also why I wrote the definitions down in my previous post because we can hardly argue about something without first clearly defining the words in question.

In an essay by David Burke who wrote "Street French and Street Spanish," he wrote that slang is nonstandard vocabulary words (such as backfire); whereas, idioms are phrases like "he lost sight of his goal." It seems that David Burke also didn't know the difference between the two and he interviewed various teachers about the definitions.

So, there is some rhyme and reason to the grouping of these tests.
The questions contain both idioms and slang words. Maybe the tests should be called "English Slang & Idioms."

As far as the students' study habits, I can't comment on that. If I were a student and I had a question, problem or if I just wanted to remember a certain word or phrase (or reference it in the future), I would write down the specific word or phrase or the title of the test (in full) in my notebook so that I can reference it again in the future.

That's what I would recommend to students.
Whether they choose to use a notebook and keep good notes is up to them. :D
_________________
One Way of Learning English Grammar
Learn English with Linda Arlia

[Torsten]

[Yankee]

.
God forbid the tests might become searchable, eh? What a preposterous idea!

It's interesting that you seem to believe this sea of tests is both navigable and logically titled.

But I suppose beggars can't be choosers, right? ;)
.
_________________
"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power." ~ Abraham Lincoln

[Torsten]

In other words, you don't have any concrete proposal?

TOEFL listening lectures: A lecture from an Art History class

[Yankee]

.
Are you are addressing me, Torsten? I've already made several concrete suggestions.
.
_________________
"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power." ~ Abraham Lincoln

[Yankee]

Here is another suggestion for the title:

"Massive Mishmash"

Although that may not be a title you'd like to use, it does fit.

As I said previously, however, I think the "best" idea would be to do some reorganizing of these tests. It could even be done alphabetically according to the phrase/idiom/collocation/word tested. Obviously, I can't force you to do anything. I can't force you to see the concrete suggestion in my previous sentence. And I can't force you to read or even acknowledge my previous concrete suggestions, either. That's all up to you.
.
.

Just in case you didn't notice or understand this idea, either: I also think it would be beneficial if the tests themselves were searchable -- particularly if the plan is to leave the "English Slang Idioms" as one huge sea of sentences.
However, I have no idea whether that's technically doable or not. I've received no feedback from you about that, have I.
.
_________________
"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power." ~ Abraham Lincoln

[Lost_Soul]

My suggestion for the title would be motley lot, if you will :D

Though Amy's Massive Mishmash would do just as well

[Linda]

Hi Amy,
After reading your last post, I have to say that you sound very emotional and bitter in what is supposed to be an open forum that includes discussions and questions pertaining to learning English.

I also want to comment on the concrete suggestions that you made. I will list them here in the order that you suggested them.
1) Random sentences
2) English Expressions and Vocabulary
3) Idiomatic Usage
4) Massive Mishmash
It seems that one out of two times your concrete suggestions have been helpful - in a 'broader' sense.

You also suggested that we should split up these tests into: "e.g. so that sub-standard usage is together, brand-new idioms are together, traditional expressions are together, very informal usage is together, specialized jargon is together, everyday vocabulary is together, etc."

I don't think they should be split up into these categories because, you know as well as I do, that there will be a lot of disagreement about whether or not an idiom or slang word is "brand-new, sub-standard, traditional" or not. And we'd have to define what is "brand-new etc."

By the way, I certainly don't think that students who use websites to learn and test and re-test their knowledge about any language should ever be called "beggars".

I think they are resourceful and appreciate the advent of the Internet as well as the increased and beneficial opportunities for independent study periods that these websites provide. And your comment suggesting otherwise is uncalled for, misleading and inappropriate.
_________________
One Way of Learning English Grammar
Learn English with Linda Arlia

[Yankee]

Hi Linda

I'm sorry that you can't manage to see the forest for the trees. "Random Sentences" and "Massive Mishmash" were designed to make a point which you apparently cannot or will not see.

I'm sorry to see that you chose to purposely ignore some other suggestions. Perhaps that's part of the problem, eh?

What you've chosen to do is to label and ignore suggestions, rather than enter into any real discussion.

Hey, leave the massive pile the way it is, if that's the way you personally like it. Leave it the way it is if you'd rather not talk about it. If you think that is the best you can do for ESL students, then that's the best you can do, I guess.

I simply don't agree that it ought to be left as it is. And the thought that the pile might become even larger and more mixed -- well let's just say I find that thought a bit scary.
.
_________________
"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power." ~ Abraham Lincoln

[Ralf]

Hey ladies,

What do you make of my suggestion; 'idiomatic expressions'?

Peace,

Ralf
_________________
Test of English as a Foreign Language
TOEFL Preparation & TOEFL Vocabulary
Learn more: How to Become an English Teacher

[Yankee]

Thank you, Ralf.

I'd certainly agree that that would be more appropriate if that pile of sentences is to left the way it is.

What about "Turns of phrase"?
.
_________________
"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power." ~ Abraham Lincoln

[Linda]

I listed your suggestions because they attest to your character and motivations. And I haven't ignored any of your comments. In fact, I listed each and every one of them for you and discussed why some of the suggestions won't work. Did you not read the post?
Here it is again: " I don't think they should be split up into these categories because, you know as well as I do, that there will be a lot of disagreement about whether or not an idiom or slang word is "brand-new, sub-standard, traditional" or not. And we'd have to define what is "brand-new etc."
I added that because I don't think arguments about subjective constructs (like brand-new idioms, traditional idioms etc.) is a good use of time. C'mon Amy, everyone knows that we will be right back in this place again next week listening to you bash most contributors etc. for any decisions that were made.
Perhaps, part of the problem is that you cannot enter into most discussions without insulting people and, now, you've chosen to insult the students as well (who you so altruistically do this all for). I think you enjoy arguments more than you enjoy 'helping out' - and that IS the problem.
_________________
One Way of Learning English Grammar
Learn English with Linda Arlia

[Linda]

Hi Ralf,
I think your suggestion is a good one and worthwhile. Thanks for the suggestion.
_________________
One Way of Learning English Grammar
Learn English with Linda Arlia