|
|
 #32 (permalink) Wed Sep 10, 2008 12:50 pm Why manufactured sentences? |
|
|
| Quote: |
One's cards are on the table, Ralf.
This is a good example for a TEFLese sentence. Where did you learn it? |
In the world of TEFL, probably.
| Quote: |
Is 'there is a pen on the desk' TEFLese, Molly?
If so, why? |
IMO, yes it is. Because: it seems "designed to illustrate the workings of a simplified grammatical system" and bears "a beguiling but ultimately quite false similarity to real English”.
And what would be a better way to use real language that shows emotionally involvement with anything on the table.
The better way would be the more usual way, wouldn't it? I'll take a stab at it.
"On the table."
"Over there."
"Open your eyes! (points toward the table).
"Here." (points toward the table surface).
BTW, MrP states that the sentence in question was presented for the purpose of learning structures and not for undertsanding meaning. Do you agree with him? |
|
Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017
|
|
| #33 (permalink) Wed Sep 10, 2008 13:12 pm Why manufactured sentences? |
|
|
| Molly wrote: |
| BTW, MrP states that the sentence in question was presented for the purpose of learning structures and not for undertsanding meaning. Do you agree with him? |
Al final - thank you for your answer, Molly.
I agree with him. But if you wanted to make an emphatic point by stating 'there is a pen on the table', it'd be perfectly possible to do so.
.
Edit: And probable, too.
_________________
Test of English as a Foreign Language
TOEFL Preparation & TOEFL Vocabulary
Learn more: How to Become an English Teacher |
|
 Ralf
Language Coach
Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 1564
Location: EU (Ireland and Germany)
|
 |
| #34 (permalink) Wed Sep 10, 2008 13:27 pm Why manufactured sentences? |
|
|
| Quote: |
| But if you wanted to make an emphatic point by stating 'there is a pen on the table', it'd be perfectly possible to do so. |
What's possible and what's probable are interesting issues in language teaching and learning. Those words and the debate go way back, but there' still a lot of people who only want to talk about the possible.
BTW, TEFLese is full of possible sentences. |
|
Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017
|
|
|
Torsten
Learning Coach
Joined: 25 Sep 2003
Posts: 14507
Location: EU
|
|
| #36 (permalink) Wed Sep 10, 2008 13:32 pm Why manufactured sentences? |
|
|
| Torsten wrote: |
| Hi Molly, do you distinguish between TEFLese and TESLese? |
Sometimes. |
|
Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017
|
|
|
Torsten
Learning Coach
Joined: 25 Sep 2003
Posts: 14507
Location: EU
|
|
| #38 (permalink) Wed Sep 10, 2008 13:45 pm Why manufactured sentences? |
|
|
| Torsten wrote: |
| Can you give me an example that shows the difference between both terms? |
Check out Mayer (2003) in Input for Instructed L2 Learners . By Anna Nizegorodcew. Google books.
A question for you, T?
| Quote: |
Mindt (1986; 1989) finds substantial evidence of the “TEFL-ese” of which Willis speaks
in the German EFL grammars and textbooks in his studies.
cels.bham.ac.uk/resources/essays/MBowlesDiss.PDF |
Is that true? Are German EFL grammars full of TEFLese - in the sense of the term used by Willis, above? |
|
Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017
|
|
| #39 (permalink) Wed Sep 10, 2008 15:17 pm Why manufactured sentences? |
|
|
| Quote: |
| Because the illustration presents a generalised view that can be applied in many cases. |
And so the illustration is not actually a illustration of a flower, but an illustration of an idealised flower, right? Will that illustration help me choose which flowers to buy if I want to give a gift? |
|
Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017
|
|
| #40 (permalink) Wed Sep 10, 2008 15:51 pm Why manufactured sentences? |
|
|
| Torsten wrote: |
| Can you give me an example that shows the difference between both terms? |
From what you know of TESLese, Torsten, how would you say it compares with motherese? |
|
Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017
|
|
| #41 (permalink) Wed Sep 10, 2008 15:53 pm Why manufactured sentences? |
|
|
To me, the terms "TESLese" and "motherese" are rather strange and I don't think I'll ever start using them. They sound a bit like "disease".
TOEFL listening discussions: A conversation in a campus cafeteria |
|
Torsten
Learning Coach
Joined: 25 Sep 2003
Posts: 14507
Location: EU
|
|
| #42 (permalink) Wed Sep 10, 2008 15:55 pm Why manufactured sentences? |
|
|
What they represent can be pretty contagious, that's for sure. :wink:
Why did you ask about TESLese and TEFLese in the first place, T? |
|
Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017
|
|
| #43 (permalink) Wed Sep 10, 2008 22:32 pm Why manufactured sentences? |
|
|
| Molly wrote: |
| And so the illustration is not actually a illustration of a flower, but an illustration of an idealised flower, right? Will that illustration help me choose which flowers to buy if I want to give a gift? |
You are a sentimental fellow.
The purpose of a generalised illustration of the structure of a plant is not to help you buy flowers. It is to teach you the structure of the plant.
MrP |
|
MrPedantic
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 1326
Location: Southern England
|
|
| #44 (permalink) Wed Sep 10, 2008 22:34 pm Why manufactured sentences? |
|
|
| Quote: |
| The purpose of a generalised illustration of the structure of a plant is not to help you buy flowers. It is to teach you the structure of the plant. |
Which leaves you with partial knowledge of plants, right? |
|
Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017
|
|
| #45 (permalink) Wed Sep 10, 2008 22:53 pm Why manufactured sentences? |
|
|
| Molly wrote: |
Which leaves you with partial knowledge of plants, right?
|
At any stage in the process of learning X, your knowledge of X is "partial".
But when you have mastered plant structure, DNA analysis, toxicology, vector biology, bioinformatics, human anatomy, the breeding habits of the phalarope, evolutionary theory, and an appropriate module in the philosophy of science, not to mention a little discreet environmentalism, you will be ready to learn the Last Great Secret of the Ancient Masters of Biology: how to choose flowers for your wife.
Study hard, Little Grasshopper.
MrP |
|
MrPedantic
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 1326
Location: Southern England
|
|
|
| "smashing" use | How can the traditional classroom rule for "some and any"? |
