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 Tue Sep 09, 2008 11:28 am Why manufactured sentences? |
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Most people believe they can learn a second language through a 'structure approach'. People want security, guidance and clarity. That's why they always think they can 'study grammar' and they usually transfer the grammar patterns of their mother tongue onto English. Since the vast majority of ESL learners think they need to learn grammar rules, linguists and ESL publishers create products that address this need. Their books are full with sentences that follow all the grammar rules they ESL speaker look for. It doesn't matter that those sentence are artificial because ESL learners don't want authentic materials.
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Torsten
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Yankee
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| Tue Sep 09, 2008 11:46 am Why manufactured sentences? |
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| Quote: | | Since the vast majority of ESL learners think they need to learn grammar rules, linguists and ESL publishers create products that address this need. |
But which came first, Torsten, the chicken or the egg? Did the linguists and ESL publishers, educationalists, etc. create the need for people to learn structures, or was it the other way round?
| Quote: | | It doesn't matter that those sentence are artificial because ESL learners don't want authentic materials. |
I don't find that at all. Many of our students do indeed want and need "authentic" items. |
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Molly
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| Tue Sep 09, 2008 12:00 pm Why manufactured sentences? |
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I wouldn't call this manufactured in the sense of seen for the first time, unfamilIar, unreal, PLASTIC:
Just look at those collocations:
The rolling hills of southeast Oklahoma stretch from Norman across to Arkansas and show little evidence of the vast deposits of crude oil that were once beneath them. Some old rigs dot the countryside; the active ones churn on, pumping out a few gallons with each slow turn and prompting a passerby to ask if the effort is really worth it.
Seems familiar, right? |
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Molly
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| Tue Sep 09, 2008 14:35 pm Why manufactured sentences? |
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| Molly wrote: | | Quote: | | It doesn't matter that those sentence are artificial because ESL learners don't want authentic materials. |
I don't find that at all. Many of our students do indeed want and need "authentic" items. |
Maybe you didn't quite catch Torsten's drift.
Anyway, how do you implement authentic materials and introduce them to your learners?
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Ralf
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| Tue Sep 09, 2008 16:01 pm Why manufactured sentences? |
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| Quote: | | Maybe you didn't quite catch Torsten's drift. |
Can you explain his drift then?
| Quote: | | Anyway, how do you implement authentic materials and introduce them to your learners? |
Maybe later in the thread or for a separate thread, if you don't mind, R. At the moment I'd like to find out which book Lewis is referring to and the answer to this "why would anyone want to create a grammar book of manufactured sentences when we have so many real examples out there?". |
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Molly
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| Wed Sep 10, 2008 1:03 am Why manufactured sentences? |
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| Would you take plastic flowers into the classroom if you wanted to teach biology? |
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Molly
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| Wed Sep 10, 2008 1:20 am Why manufactured sentences? |
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| Molly wrote: | | Would you take plastic flowers into the classroom if you wanted to teach biology? |
Or a model of the double helix, if you wanted to explain the structure of DNA?
Well, apparently so...
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MrPedantic
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| Wed Sep 10, 2008 1:23 am Why manufactured sentences? |
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Can you go out and touch DNA? How can you experience DNA?
So the plastic flowers would be OK by you, right? If I want to experience what a garden feels like, you'd fill a space with plastic flowers and ask me to wander through it, would you? |
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Molly
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| Wed Sep 10, 2008 1:42 am Why manufactured sentences? |
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| Molly wrote: | Can you go out and touch DNA? How can you experience DNA?
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Quite easily, with salt, alcohol, washing up liquid, and a kiwi fruit. But to demonstrate the structure, Watson and Crick's model is clearly superior.
| Quote: | So the plastic flowers would be OK by you, right? If I want to experience what a garden feels like, you'd fill a space with plastic flowers and ask me to wander through it, would you?
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If you want to learn about the structure of flowers, I'm sure plastic kits are available; but it would probably be easier to use an illustration.
Once you've mastered the structure, we can take you out into the garden and show you the structure of some real flowers. (But you will find it easier if we look at illustrations first.)
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MrPedantic
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| Wed Sep 10, 2008 2:04 am Why manufactured sentences? |
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| Quote: | | Quite easily, with salt, alcohol, washing up liquid, and a kiwi fruit. But to demonstrate the structure, Watson and Crick's model is clearly superior. |
And do you find that having grammar books full of manufactured sentences is an example of clearly superior model? How would those manufactured sentences help me understand the language better than real/used examples would?
| Quote: | | Once you've mastered the structure, we can take you out into the garden and show you the structure of some real flowers. |
And why not the other way round? |
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Molly
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| Wed Sep 10, 2008 2:06 am Why manufactured sentences? |
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Are you also opposed to novels, M?
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Yankee
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| Wed Sep 10, 2008 2:09 am Why manufactured sentences? |
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| Yankee wrote: | .
Are you also opposed to novels, M?
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Only those written in Mandarin, Amy. Can't read a word of Mandarin. |
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Molly
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| Wed Sep 10, 2008 2:37 am Why manufactured sentences? |
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| Molly wrote: | And do you find that having grammar books full of manufactured sentences is an example of clearly superior model? How would those manufactured sentences help me understand the language better than real/used examples would?
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Since neither of us knows, apparently, which book Lewis disliked, we are neither of us in a position to say whether they are "manufactured", "superior", or not "real/used".
| Quote: | | Quote: | Once you've mastered the structure, we can take you out into the garden and show you the structure of some real flowers.
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And why not the other way round?
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Because the illustration presents a generalised view that can be applied in many cases. A particular case presents only a particular case.
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MrPedantic
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| "smashing" use | How can the traditional classroom rule for "some and any"? |
