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 #17 (permalink) Wed Sep 17, 2008 1:03 am past perfect imperfections |
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| Molly wrote: |
I answered the door when the plumber had rang the bell.
What can one do to avoid this situation? How would you explain to them that this sentence is ungrammatical?
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The sentence contains a typo, presumably to add verisimilitude, etc., but it doesn't seem "ungrammatical" to me. "Unidiomatic" in most likely contexts, perhaps.
| Molly wrote: |
| Torsten wrote: |
| By the way, I think Amy answered your question. |
I'm not so sure. Does her answer cover "When he had finished dinner, we sat down to talk" and "We sat down to talk when he had finished dinner"?
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Pete and Rusty don't say that you must use the past perfect, where one event precedes another; they also provide additional information about "when" and the past simple, as Amy shows. Taken together, these cover the "dyslexic plumber" problem.
On the other hand, the header on their "past perfect" page does refer to completed actions: which covers your "chat after dinner" example.
Note this difference between the "dinner" and "doorbell" examples: the "ringing" event is still "open", as we know from the fact that the chimes are still echoing chintzily down the hallway; whereas the "dinner" is "finished" and all eructations are complete.
(This might be a good time, by the way, to raise our hats to Pete and Rusty, who do a very thorough job over at English Page.)
MrP |
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MrPedantic
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| #18 (permalink) Wed Sep 17, 2008 3:56 am past perfect imperfections |
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Hi
Maybe you could get the student to look at different forms of expression for the sentence they produced, for example;
I answered the door after the plumber rang the door bell.
OR I answered the door bell as the plumber rang/ was ringing the door bell.
If you then asked them to try to distinguish the difference, they may come up with an accurate observation.
You can always, as Torsten mentioned, come up with overcomplexity, but is this a necessity of a teacher?
I would argue anyway doing this is;
a) wanting to impress
b) challenging a higher level student
c) deliberately picking holes in the English grammar explanations
any of the above.
Or just needs to move past self created walls and just learn through adding some acceptance to the mix.
_________________
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Stew.t.
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| #19 (permalink) Wed Sep 17, 2008 7:30 am past perfect imperfections |
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| Quote: |
| The sentence contains a typo, presumably to add verisimilitude, etc., but it doesn't seem "ungrammatical" to me. "Unidiomatic" in most likely contexts, perhaps. |
Does "grammatical" not include "idiomatic", in your use of the word?
| Quote: |
| Pete and Rusty don't say that you must use the past perfect, where one event precedes another; |
Yes, we know, but I'm talking about how, in quite a few cases, students "misinterpret" such written "rules". Does the problem lie with the student in such cases or with the writers?
| Quote: |
Taken together, these cover the "dyslexic plumber" problem.
Note this difference between the "dinner" and "doorbell" examples: the "ringing" event is still "open", as we know from the fact that the chimes are still echoing chintzily down the hallway; whereas the "dinner" is "finished" and all eructations are complete. |
So, can you rewrite the past perfect rule for us and include your "subjective-considerations" approach? |
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Molly
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| #20 (permalink) Wed Sep 17, 2008 7:42 am past perfect imperfections |
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| Quote: |
I would argue anyone doing this is;
a) wanting to impress
b) challenging a higher level student
c) deliberately picking holes in the English grammar explanations |
You might spend your life arguing then. Do you fear challenges to your professional position? And what does "I would argue anyone" mean?
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| c) deliberately picking holes in the English grammar explanations |
If that didn't happen, we'd still have the grammar explanations from 200 years or more ago, Stew. Would you like that?
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| You can always, as Torsten mentioned, come up with overcomplexity, but is this a necessity of a teacher? |
It may not be, but teachers should also admit that oversimplfying can also cause confusion. Teachers who give simplified explanations should also be ready to admit that such explanations may also lead to confusion in later stages of learning. And, when challenged on their simplified explanations, teachers should be ready to discuss "misunderstandings" openly. One should always be ready to look at one's teaching methods and make adjustments where necessary, shouldn't one?
So, I think this should apply to teachers as well as to students:
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| Or just needs to move past self created walls and just learn through adding some acceptance to the mix. |
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Molly
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| #21 (permalink) Wed Sep 17, 2008 8:06 am past perfect imperfections |
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How can these statements play a part in helping the student distinguish between use of the past perfect and past simple?
The meaning of the perfect forms is associated with the speaker's temporal interpretation of the event.
The meaning of the simple forms is associated with the speaker's factual statement of the situation. |
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Molly
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| #22 (permalink) Wed Sep 17, 2008 9:16 am past perfect imperfections |
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Molly, your problem is that you are trying to see the situation from an ESL/EFL teacher's perspective who might be asked by his students to explain the rules of the tenses. As a successful learner of English you don't need to bother about how to explain grammar rules because you don't need them. What you really need is to learn good, idiomatic English.
In other words, you need to learn WHAT sounds good rather than trying to come with explanations as to WHY it sounds good.
TOEIC listening, photographs: A Snow scene |
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Torsten
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| #23 (permalink) Wed Sep 17, 2008 9:39 am past perfect imperfections |
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| Quote: |
| Molly, your problem is that you are trying to see the situation from an ESL/EFL teacher's perspective who might be asked by his students to explain the rules of the tenses. |
Torsten, that is exactly my intention. I'm looking at the problems ESL/EFL students face and not some "student" who has "freed" himself form the bounds of the ESL/EFL classroom. Would you tell an ESL/EFL student to forget all his/her questions and doubts about grammar, etc. because one day in the bright "successful learner" future all those problems will melt away?
I'm looking at how one's ESL/EFL experience can be made easier, clearer, less-stressful, etc. |
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Molly
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| #24 (permalink) Wed Sep 17, 2008 10:38 am past perfect imperfections |
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Molly, why don't you bring your students to our site and read How to learn grammar together with them? You should try to help your students improve their learning techniques rather than talking about theoretical grammar rules.
TOEIC listening, photographs: Restaurant on the lake |
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Torsten
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| #25 (permalink) Wed Sep 17, 2008 10:40 am past perfect imperfections |
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| Quote: |
| (This might be a good time, by the way, to raise our hats to Pete and Rusty, who do a very thorough job over at English Page.) |
I'm sure they do a good job in many ways, but I'm questioning the effectiveness of grammar and usage explanations which appear not only on their site, but also on many others and in many pedalogical grammars and in ESL coursebooks.
In which way do you think Pete and Rusty's explanation of the past perfect and past simple is helping these posters?
http://www.englishpage.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11068&highlight=past+perfect |
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Molly
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| #26 (permalink) Wed Sep 17, 2008 10:42 am past perfect imperfections |
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| Torsten wrote: |
| Molly, why don't you bring your students to our site and read How to learn grammar together with them? You should try to help your students improve their learning techniques rather than talking about theoretical grammar rules. |
Because they'd still have to go back to the ESL classroom and learn grammar the way many, many ESL teachers teach it.
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| You should try to help your students improve their learning techniques rather than talking about theoretical grammar rules. |
Isn't the latter one of the main focuses of students who visit this and many other language sites? Do you think many of those students have benefited from your above article? |
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Molly
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Posts: 4017
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| #27 (permalink) Wed Sep 17, 2008 10:55 am past perfect imperfections |
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Yes Molly, a lot of people have been benefiting from the ideas and materials on our site and we are glad that you are such an ardent supporter of our project. I'm sure a lot of students and ESL/EFL professionals have been benefiting from all your valuable contributions.
You are absolutely right, a lot 'students have to go back to the/your ESL classroom and learn grammar the way you teach it'. That's why it's so good that you are trying to find new ways of explaining grammar rules. Your system of explaining the tenses is excellent and I'm sure it works perfectly with many/most of your students.
TOEIC listening, photographs: Canoing on a mountain lake |
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Torsten
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| #28 (permalink) Wed Sep 17, 2008 11:15 am past perfect imperfections |
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| Quote: |
| That's why it's so good that you are trying to find new ways of explaining grammar rules. Your system of explaining the tenses is excellent and I'm sure it works perfectly with many/most of your students. |
I don't actually have any students, T, as I'm an administrator in an academy, but we are all constantly trying to review the way things are taught/delivered here.
BTW, this, How to learn grammar, is excellent advice. Well done! |
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Molly
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| #29 (permalink) Wed Sep 17, 2008 11:32 am past perfect imperfections |
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Hi Molly,
Thanks a lot for your positive feedback. Yes, Alan has a very refreshing approach to grammar. By the way, how do you teach your teachers? I mean, do they have to use a certain system similar to the Callan Method or the "Berlitz Method"? Maybe you have created your own system. If so, how would you describe it?
TOEIC listening, photographs: A maize field |
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Torsten
Learning Coach
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| #30 (permalink) Wed Sep 17, 2008 11:33 am past perfect imperfections |
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I find this statement by John Sinclair, linguist, something to bear in mind:
"Learners need to keep their feet on the ground and feel that there are clear and simple answers to their problems of expression and understanding. If they are given ifs and buts and perhapses, they will turn off and rapidly conclude that the language or the teacher is lacking in clarity."
From: How to Use Corpora in Language Teaching. By John McHardy Sinclair. |
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Molly
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| Have you ever been disciplined at school? | The use of "much as" |
