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 #2 (permalink) Tue Sep 16, 2008 13:13 pm past perfect imperfections |
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You could send Pete and Rusty a note suggesting that they include a link to their simple past tense page on their past perfect page, for example.
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Yankee
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| #3 (permalink) Tue Sep 16, 2008 14:39 pm past perfect imperfections |
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Show Rusty and Pete how to fix the pipe themselves, thus avoiding the necessity of calling a plumber. No plumber, no doorbell, no need to write about it.
Plus they learn a valuable, marketable skill.
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 Skrej
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| #4 (permalink) Tue Sep 16, 2008 15:18 pm past perfect imperfections |
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| Yankee wrote: |
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You could send Pete and Rusty a note suggesting that they include a link to their simple past tense page on their past perfect page, for example.
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I could, but even students who have been taught how to use the past simple still make errors such as the above. Students of that type still ask why they can't say:
I answered the door when the plumber had rang the bell when the rule says "The Past Perfect expresses the idea that something occurred before another action in the past. It can also show that something happened before a specific time in the past."
What would you tell those students? |
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Molly
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| #5 (permalink) Tue Sep 16, 2008 15:20 pm past perfect imperfections |
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Never trust a plumber's grammar, obviously.
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Skrej
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| #6 (permalink) Tue Sep 16, 2008 15:24 pm past perfect imperfections |
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| Skrej wrote: |
| Never trust a plumber's grammar, obviously. |
Where did the plumber speak? I must have missed it? |
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Molly
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| #7 (permalink) Tue Sep 16, 2008 15:29 pm past perfect imperfections |
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| Molly wrote: |
Students of that type still ask why they can't say:
I answered the door when the plumber had rang the bell when the rule says "The Past Perfect expresses the idea that something occurred before another action in the past. It can also show that something happened before a specific time in the past."
What would you tell those students? |
I think in most cases when you use the past perfect instead of the simple past, you want to stress that between both events a significant period time passed. In your example, both events happen almost simultaneously.
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Torsten
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| #8 (permalink) Tue Sep 16, 2008 15:47 pm past perfect imperfections |
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| Torsten wrote: |
| I think in most cases when you use the past perfect instead of the simple past, you want to stress that between both events a significant period time passed. In your example, both events happen almost simultaneously. |
An interesting observation, Torsten, but what does a student do with "in most cases" and "a significant period (of time)"? |
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Molly
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| #9 (permalink) Tue Sep 16, 2008 16:35 pm past perfect imperfections |
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Any person will understand that no language learned by trying to look for logical explanations of 'grammar rules'. Just relax and enjoy exploring the language. Read more. Watch more TV, etc. Do the same activities you do when using your native language. Spend less time thinking about grammar.
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| #10 (permalink) Tue Sep 16, 2008 16:36 pm past perfect imperfections |
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Do you suppose this might help, Molly?
| Quote: |
IMPORTANT When-Clauses Happen First
Clauses are groups of words which have meaning but are often not complete sentences. Some clauses begin with the word "when" such as "when I dropped my pen..." or "when class began..." These clauses are called when-clauses, and they are very important. The examples below contain when-clauses.
Examples:
* When I paid her one dollar, she answered my question.
* She answered my question when I paid her one dollar.
When-clauses are important because they always happen first when both clauses are in the Simple Past. Both of the examples above mean the same thing: first, I paid her one dollar, and then, she answered my question. It is not important whether "when I paid her one dollar" is at the beginning of the sentence or at the end of the sentence. However, the example below has a different meaning. First, she answered my question, and then, I paid her one dollar.
Example:
* I paid her one dollar when she answered my question. |
The above is a partial quote from the same source as the partial quote in your first post. |
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Yankee
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| #11 (permalink) Tue Sep 16, 2008 17:05 pm past perfect imperfections |
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| Quote: |
| Spend less time thinking about grammar. |
Easy to say, but one of the most visited forums here is the English Vocabulary, Grammar and Idioms forum, and most question there seem to be about grammar. Also, if one is an ESL student study for one of the Cambridge Exams, for example, one really can not "Spend less time thinking about grammar.". |
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Molly
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| #12 (permalink) Tue Sep 16, 2008 17:15 pm past perfect imperfections |
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| Quote: |
| Do you suppose this might help, Molly? |
How would it? |
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Molly
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| #13 (permalink) Tue Sep 16, 2008 17:17 pm past perfect imperfections |
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If you prepare for one of the Cambridge exams or for any other English language exam, you need to improve your English. The more you talk about grammar in terms of rules, the more difficult it gets for you. That's why we encourage our forum users to ask specific questions providing us with as much context as possible. For example, if somebody reads a book and comes across a sentence, an expression or even a word they find difficult to understand, they can post them so we can discuss them.
By the way, I think Amy answered your question.
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| #14 (permalink) Tue Sep 16, 2008 22:56 pm past perfect imperfections |
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| Torsten wrote: |
| By the way, I think Amy answered your question. |
I'm not so sure. Does her answer cover "When he had finished dinner, we sat down to talk" and "We sat down to talk when he had finished dinner"? |
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Molly
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| #15 (permalink) Tue Sep 16, 2008 23:03 pm past perfect imperfections |
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It seems you are trying to make it look more complicated than it actually is.
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| Have you ever been disciplined at school? | The use of "much as" |
