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 #17 (permalink) Tue Sep 23, 2008 13:10 pm Forgiveness and excusing. |
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| NinaZara wrote: |
| Not this kind of mistake. And that sounds like an excuse to me. |
It is. :oops: |
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Molly
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| #18 (permalink) Tue Sep 23, 2008 13:19 pm Forgiveness and excusing. |
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| Molly wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Drawing from the source of this topic, I'd say any sort of child abuse, sexual or physical should neither be forgiven nor excused. |
How about when the attacker is mentally disabled or mentally ill? |
The fact that the abuse happened is already an indication of mental problems. This doesn't make it any less severe or more allowable. An excuse isn't a defacto reason to excuse somebody offhand.
A person in his/her right mind doesn't abuse children. Period. If they do, then they should have to face the consequences.
Can you in good faith tell your child "It's okay honey, he didn't know what he was doing", or "It's okay, she couldn't help herself."?
Still want to give such a person a second chance Molly, let them roam around just because 'they're not quite right'?
Maybe as long as it's not your child, it's forgivable, eh?
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 Skrej
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| #19 (permalink) Tue Sep 23, 2008 14:23 pm Forgiveness and excusing. |
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| Molly wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Drawing from the source of this topic, I'd say any sort of child abuse, sexual or physical should neither be forgiven nor excused. |
How about when the attacker is mentally disabled or mentally ill? |
Forgive but never excuse. And never let children near him. |
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Jamie (K)
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Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| #20 (permalink) Tue Sep 23, 2008 14:33 pm Forgiveness and excusing. |
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| Quote: |
| The fact that the abuse happened is already an indication of mental problems. This doesn't make it any less severe or more allowable. An excuse isn't a defacto reason to excuse somebody offhand. |
How about "diminished capacity" when used by defence lawyers? Do you see such defence as a conspiracy of the legal and medical professions to release increasingly guilty offenders into the community and is driven by money and socialists? |
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Molly
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| #21 (permalink) Tue Sep 23, 2008 14:36 pm Forgiveness and excusing. |
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| Molly wrote: |
| Quote: |
| The fact that the abuse happened is already an indication of mental problems. This doesn't make it any less severe or more allowable. An excuse isn't a defacto reason to excuse somebody offhand. |
How about "diminished capacity" when used by defence lawyers? Do you see such defence as a conspiracy of the legal and medical professions to release increasingly guilty offenders into the community and is driven by money and socialists? |
Criminals with "diminished capacity" are often nonetheless incarcerated in prisons or mental hospitals so that they are not a danger to society. |
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Jamie (K)
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| #22 (permalink) Tue Sep 23, 2008 14:36 pm Forgiveness and excusing. |
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| Quote: |
| Forgive but never excuse. |
Then I'm not sure about your use of the word "excuse". In some cases, mentally disabled men may abuse children because such men may not know right from wrong. If a person really doesn't know right from wrong, how can he not be excused? |
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Molly
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| #23 (permalink) Tue Sep 23, 2008 14:38 pm Forgiveness and excusing. |
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| Quote: |
| Criminals with "diminished capacity" are often nonetheless incarcerated in prisons or mental hospitals so that they are not a danger to society. |
Indeed, but when we do accept a plea of diminished capacity, aren't we in some way partially excusing the actions of the criminal? |
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Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
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| #24 (permalink) Tue Sep 23, 2008 14:40 pm Forgiveness and excusing. |
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| Molly wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Criminals with "diminished capacity" are often nonetheless incarcerated in prisons or mental hospitals so that they are not a danger to society. |
Indeed, but when we do accept a plea of diminished capacity, aren't we in some way partially excusing the actions of the criminal? |
Forgiving them but not excusing them. The person is still incarcerated. |
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Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)
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Posts: 6559
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| #25 (permalink) Tue Sep 23, 2008 14:46 pm Forgiveness and excusing. |
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| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| Forgiving them but not excusing them. The person is still incarcerated. |
So you haven't got this use of "excuse" in mind?
verb: excuse, overlook, or make allowances for; be lenient with ("Excuse someone's behavior") |
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Molly
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| #26 (permalink) Tue Sep 23, 2008 14:47 pm Forgiveness and excusing. |
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Label it whatever you will, the fact remains that it happened. Whether that 'diminished capacity' is the result of mental retardation, drugs, alcohol, emotional disturbance, regardless the reason is still subject to the action.
A defense lawyer's job is to defend their client to the best of their ability, just as a prosecuting attorney's job is to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. Money can drastically influence the degree of proficiency you get at either end, but often it's the defense that benefits most from a reserve of cash.
It's a rare bird indeed who'll willingly confess and face up to their punishment. For those who don't, with enough money, and the right connections, you can find a sympathetic ear for damn near everything.
I wouldn't call it a conspiracy as much as I would simply call it greed. Money is an agenda onto itself.
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Skrej
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| #27 (permalink) Tue Sep 23, 2008 15:06 pm Forgiveness and excusing. |
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| What do you guys think of the use of corporal punishment for heinous crime? |
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NinaZara
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| #28 (permalink) Tue Sep 23, 2008 15:09 pm Forgiveness and excusing. |
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| Quote: |
| Label it whatever you will, the fact remains that it happened. Whether that 'diminished capacity' is the result of mental retardation, drugs, alcohol, emotional disturbance, regardless the reason is still subject to the action. |
So just to clarify, you believe that no criminal can be excused (in the sense of the meaning below) of his actions even if having diminished capacity at the time of his crime, right?
verb: excuse, overlook, or make allowances for; be lenient with ("Excuse someone's behavior") |
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Molly
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| #29 (permalink) Tue Sep 23, 2008 15:10 pm Forgiveness and excusing. |
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| NinaZara wrote: |
| What do you guys think of the use of corporal punishment for heinous crime? |
It shouldn't be forgiven. :wink: |
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Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
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| #30 (permalink) Tue Sep 23, 2008 15:45 pm Forgiveness and excusing. |
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| Molly wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Label it whatever you will, the fact remains that it happened. Whether that 'diminished capacity' is the result of mental retardation, drugs, alcohol, emotional disturbance, regardless the reason is still subject to the action. |
So just to clarify, you believe that no criminal can be excused (in the sense of the meaning below) of his actions even if having diminished capacity at the time of his crime, right?
verb: excuse, overlook, or make allowances for; be lenient with ("Excuse someone's behavior") |
You're trying to over-generalize, once again. I made no such blanket statement. I'm speaking strictly on the issue of child abuse, not criminals in general. Every crime is different, and has to be viewed as such.
Drop the semantics. When referring to the issue of child abuse, my statement is pure and simple. It should not have happened, regardless of why it happened. It should not be allowed to happen again, regardless of why it happened. To excuse something is to allow that perhaps the deed done was not quite as foul, all things considered. There is no excusing of child abuse, period.
Perhaps other crimes less heinous might allow for excusing. The topic of the thread was 'any crime that cannot be excused or forgiven.' I have listed one, and regardless of how you try to lubricate the definition, in my book there is no excuse for it.
Forgiveness is more of a personal issue, but excusing is not. In regards to the crime of child abuse, you cannot sugar coat it enough to provide any extenuating circumstance to excuse it.
If you want to somehow defend, justify, or make allowances for a child abuser, so be it. However, to me, that's only a half-step away from doing the crime yourself.
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Skrej
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| A language is never acquired and is constantly evolving | Another question for Torsten, or anyone familiar with ESL in German schools. |
