|
|
 #17 (permalink) Sat Oct 04, 2008 11:08 am Wait while it is deleted vs. Wait while it is being deleted |
|
|
| Molly wrote: |
* Wait while the concert is over.
|
Skrej has pithily summarised the defects in this construction, from the point of view of standard AmE; and the same arguments would apply in standard BrE.
This use of "while" may well be a feature of some regional form of English; but in a non-native speaker, it would sound like an error. (As you no doubt know.)
That said, all respondents are agreed that the original #1 is a valid form, though interpretations differ; and that was the point under discussion.
MrP |
|
MrPedantic
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 1326
Location: Southern England
|
|
| #18 (permalink) Sat Oct 04, 2008 23:09 pm Wait while it is deleted vs. Wait while it is being deleted |
|
|
| Quote: |
| This use of "while" may well be a feature of some regional form of English; but in a non-native speaker, it would sound like an error. (As you no doubt know.) |
Wouldn't that depend on who the non-native speaker was talking to? Or do you think that all non-native speakers converse only with standard English speakers? And are all standard English speakers free from regionalisms or other forms of non-standard speech? |
|
Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017
|
 |
| #19 (permalink) Sun Oct 05, 2008 1:42 am Wait while it is deleted vs. Wait while it is being deleted |
|
|
I'm not familiar with the structure "Wait while X is over" in standard or regional English. The WFSE doesn't seem to return any examples. It may be a feature of some form of English, somewhere; but until evidence is presented, there is no reason to think so (or to discuss the subject further).
MrP |
|
MrPedantic
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 1326
Location: Southern England
|
|
| #20 (permalink) Sun Oct 05, 2008 11:23 am Wait while it is deleted vs. Wait while it is being deleted |
|
|
| Quote: |
| It may be a feature of some form of English, somewhere; but until evidence is presented, there is no reason to think so (or to discuss the subject further). |
Are you saying that "while", when meaning "until" does not appear in standard or regional English? |
|
Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017
|
|
| #21 (permalink) Sun Oct 05, 2008 11:50 am Wait while it is deleted vs. Wait while it is being deleted |
|
|
I'm saying that
1. * Wait here while the concert is over.
does not return a comprehensible meaning, in standard BrE. (It also seems to fail in standard AmE, to judge by Amy's and Skrej's posts.)
Consider these examples:
2. Wait here while I clean the car.
3. Wait here until I've cleaned the car.
4. Wait here until I clean the car.
Which, for you, is closer to the meaning of #2: #3 or #4?
MrP |
|
MrPedantic
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 1326
Location: Southern England
|
|
| #22 (permalink) Sun Oct 05, 2008 13:36 pm Wait while it is deleted vs. Wait while it is being deleted |
|
|
| MrPedantic wrote: |
1. * Wait here while the concert is over.
does not return a comprehensible meaning, in standard BrE. (It also seems to fail in standard AmE, to judge by Amy's and Skrej's posts.) |
Right.
My understanding of that "concert" dialogue would be the same as MrP's and Skrej's. The word "while" does not mean "until". It sounds as if good old mum is telling the kid to wait during the entire period of time that "the concert is over" -- i.e. the waiting must take place during all of the time after the concert. Thus it sounds as if mum is in essence telling the kid he/she might never be able to go to the toilet again. Ever. Obviously, that is nonsensical.
In contrast, saying "until the concert is over" would refer to time before/up to the end of the concert. So, if the end of the concert were 15 minutes away (i.e. in the future), the kid would have to wait 15 minutes and then he/she could go to the toilet.
.
_________________
"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power." ~ Abraham Lincoln |
|
Yankee
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 16 Apr 2006
Posts: 8325
Location: USA
|
|
| #23 (permalink) Sun Oct 05, 2008 15:27 pm Wait while it is deleted vs. Wait while it is being deleted |
|
|
| Quote: |
Consider these examples:
2. Wait here while I clean the car.
3. Wait here until I've cleaned the car.
4. Wait here until I clean the car.
Which, for you, is closer to the meaning of #2: #3 or #4? |
Which what is "closer to the meaning of #2: #3 or #4"? |
|
Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017
|
|
| #24 (permalink) Sun Oct 05, 2008 15:29 pm Wait while it is deleted vs. Wait while it is being deleted |
|
|
| Quote: |
| Thus it sounds as if mum is in essence telling the kid he/she might never be able to go to the toilet again. Ever. Obviously, that is nonsensical. |
Unless, for some speakers, "while" can also be used to mean "until".
What does "while" mean here, for you and for the speaker?
To me, "wait while the file is deleted" is the same as "wait while the action is completed" and "wait while the concert is over". Each one is using "while" to mean "until the time when". |
|
Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017
|
|
| #25 (permalink) Sun Oct 05, 2008 15:41 pm Wait while it is deleted vs. Wait while it is being deleted |
|
|
Hi Torsten,
Don't be abashed that
| Quote: |
| the largest software maker in the world doesn't agree with me. |
I would be happier with the use of the continuous passive form in the sentences you quote simply because it suggests that the deletion 'is taking place' while you wait.
Alan
_________________
English as a Second Language
You can read my ESL story Present Simple |
|
Alan
Co-founder
Joined: 27 Sep 2003
Posts: 14439
Location: UK
|
|
| #26 (permalink) Sun Oct 05, 2008 15:44 pm Wait while it is deleted vs. Wait while it is being deleted |
|
|
.
Where is the evidence for your "wait while the concert is over" dialogue, M?
I can easily imagine that you haven't been able to find any evidence for that particular sort of usage.
Your intentional "non-answer" to MrP's question tells me all I need to know.
.
_________________
"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power." ~ Abraham Lincoln |
|
Yankee
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 16 Apr 2006
Posts: 8325
Location: USA
|
|
| #27 (permalink) Sun Oct 05, 2008 15:46 pm Wait while it is deleted vs. Wait while it is being deleted |
|
|
| Quote: |
| I would be happier with the use of the continuous passive form in the sentences you quote simply because it suggests that the deletion 'is taking place' while you wait. |
Exactly. The other form focuses on the endpoint, and therefore "while", when meaning "during the time/period", does not work. |
|
Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017
|
|
| #28 (permalink) Sun Oct 05, 2008 15:49 pm Wait while it is deleted vs. Wait while it is being deleted |
|
|
| Quote: |
| I can easily imagine that you haven't been able to find any evidence for that particular sort of usage. |
Well, as even the Internet is almost regional dialect free, it shouldn't surprise anyone that "while", when used to mean "till/until" is hard to find there.
On the Internet, how many examples can you find in one day of the word/expression "nethen", as used in NW England? Take a look.
BTW, did you intend to have a non-answer to this item?
|
|
Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017
|
|
| #29 (permalink) Sun Oct 05, 2008 16:06 pm Wait while it is deleted vs. Wait while it is being deleted |
|
|
| Molly wrote: |
| BTW, did you intend to have a non-answer to this item? |
You're purposely misleading and misstating again, M. I did answer your post. Although your supposed justification for "wait while the concert is over" was not included in your original post, I did see that you had edited your post after I posted. It made no difference, though. You still haven't posted any evidence of using "while" to mean "until" in a sentence such as the one you posted in your earlier mini-conversation -- i.e. "wait while the concert is over".
And you still haven't answered MrP's question, either.
Hmmm. I'd say you're muddling things only because you know we're right. ;)
.
_________________
"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power." ~ Abraham Lincoln |
|
Yankee
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 16 Apr 2006
Posts: 8325
Location: USA
|
|
| #30 (permalink) Sun Oct 05, 2008 17:02 pm Wait while it is deleted vs. Wait while it is being deleted |
|
|
If I understand the answers to the original question correctly, this is the position:
1. Amy and MrP think that both versions are fine, and that they represent the passive present and the passive present progressive respectively.
2. MrP thinks #2 is more usual; Alan prefers #2 because "it suggests that the deletion is taking place while you wait." Alex also prefers #2.
3. Molly thinks "each of [the] examples is fine"; #1 "focuses on the end of the action and the second on the process of the action". However, he also thinks that in #1, "while", when meaning "during the time/period", does not work. Instead, for #1 to work, a regional (?south Yorks, ?Mancunian) usage of "while" must be applied: the "deleted" may then be parsed as an adjective.
(This is probably not a good time to attempt to summarise the "concert" sub-plot.)
MrP |
|
MrPedantic
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 1326
Location: Southern England
|
|
|
| Usage of 'right?' to replace 'isn't it?' or 'don't they?' | 'over' vs 'above' |
