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Sun May 08, 2005 13:05 pm Fruit and banana |
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If you (any of you) don't mind, I have further problems:
I love fruit for dessert. My favorite fruit is banana.
Shall 'banana' in the above 2nd sentnce be banana, or a banana? And can we say 'My favorite fruits are bananas'? |
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Derek Wang Guest
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Sun May 08, 2005 17:32 pm Dog or dogs |
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So I have created doubts. I am happy. My favorite fruit is banana - seems to be the correct form. Here on the analogy- Dogs are my favorite animals- you can't say - Bananas are my favorites fruits- because this seems odd. Banana is my favorite fruit- is better. My favorite fruits are bananas- again is not acceptable and requires re-writing. |
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banana Guest
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Sun May 08, 2005 17:38 pm Banana |
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| Only the subject should read banana and not the user name- refer to the previous post. |
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Guest
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Mon May 09, 2005 9:16 am Dog or dogs |
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1. A dog is my favorite animal. 2. Dogs are my favorite animals. (A) Allisop Jake: Students’ English Grammar. London: Cassell, 1983.(ELBS) a(n) any member of a class to which the member belongs. In statements like these: An elephant cannot marry a mouse. However, in such cases, it is more usual to use the plural: Mice cannot marry elephants. Cars must be fitted with safety belts. At a car park: ‘Cars are parked here’ is normal use than ‘a car is parked here.’ When you are talking about specific objects, rather than objects in general, you must use the plural, as in the notice ‘ Cars are parked at owner’s risk.’ (35-36)* To make “General statements involving mass and count nouns To make generalizations, we use: the plural of count nouns without ‘the’, e.g. dogs mass nouns without ‘the’ e.g. sugar. e.g. Dogs make good pets. Sugar is bad for you.”So leaving out ‘the’ and making them plural makes them general statements. The Dogs in our street are very noisy. ( specific) Compare this with the above. (39)* (B) Leech Geoffrey and Jan Svartvik.: A Communicative Grammar of English. Essex, UK: Longman,1973. (ELBS)
“Specific versus generic meaning” SPECIFIC USE GENERIC USE Pass the butter, please. Butter is expensive nowadays. The acting was poor, but we enjoyed the music. Generic use: I simply love music and dancing Before visiting Spain, you ought to learn the language. Generic Use: The scientific study of language is called linguistics. Specific Use: Come and look at the horses. Generic Use: Horses are my favorite animals. This has been taken word for word from the book mentioned. (54)*This was in tabular form. I could not bring that table here. I have written a lot to say A dog is my favorite animal is unusual and Dogs are my favorite animals is the best form. Many seemed unconvinced; so this explanation. Let us consider this issue closed as of now. * Numbers in parentheses indicate page numbers. |
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Narayanan Krishnaswamy You can meet me at english-test.net
Joined: 30 Apr 2005 Posts: 67 Location: Coimbatore. India
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Mon May 09, 2005 10:37 am Articles |
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Thank you for the potted extracts from various grammars. Clearly the is specific and that's why we called it definite/defining and a/an is the equivalent to one in other languages and furthermore there is no plural of a/an and so there is no article. What I want to say is that you can quote endless books of grammar till the cows come home but for the record My favourite animal is a dog is not UNUSUAL but perfectly acceptable to a native speaker and I think I really ought to know having spoken the language for the last 69 years. _________________ English as a Second Language You can read my ESL story Passive Voice |
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Alan Co-founder

Joined: 27 Sep 2003 Posts: 7274 Location: UK
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Mon May 09, 2005 21:44 pm Dog or dogs |
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hmmm Narayanan Krishnaswamy, with all respect to your profound knowledge of English. When you discuss the subject with a native speaker, like Alan for instance, and you try to prove him what's right and what's wrong, you actually (as we say in poland): "Try to teach your father how to make children". I'm sure you know your stuff inside out but Alan, besides being a teacher, is a native speaker and he just KNOWS what sounds ok. And as Alan mentioned before: "you can quote books" but still he will just know better.... like any other English speaking person of average educational background.(of course i'm not reffering to Alan here) With all due respect Mosteque _________________ obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit |
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Mosteque I'm here quite often ;-)

Joined: 02 Mar 2005 Posts: 102 Location: Poland
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Mon May 09, 2005 23:17 pm Articles |
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I asked questions, because I have to give my students answers. After all these discussions, I believe it's safe to say:
My favorite animal is a dog. My favorite animal is the dog. My favorite animals are dogs.
But how about:
My favorite fruit is banana.
Shall banana, a countable noun, be always preceded by something -- an article, a deteminer, or a quantifier?
One more thing, can I presume it is incorrect to say:
Dogs are a man's best friend.
because the subject is plural and the subject complement is singular? Does it sound better to say:
Dogs are men's best friends. |
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Derek Wang Guest
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Tue May 10, 2005 11:58 am Dogdogs |
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With due respect to the native speaker, the quotes were all taken from English grammarians. It is one thing to speak and another to write. Spoken form accepts, simple loose formations. But not the written form; particularly if it deals with language or serious writing. I have learned many things from this forum and still hope to hear a lot on usage. In India the serious teachers wish to know the maximum they can, before they enter the class rooms. So, let me take, in normal spoken form or even in written form - My favorite animal is a dog-is acceptable and can be accepted as conveying the meaning to the reader or the listener. I personally prefer- dogs are my favorite animals. |
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Narayanan Krishnaswamy You can meet me at english-test.net
Joined: 30 Apr 2005 Posts: 67 Location: Coimbatore. India
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Thu May 26, 2005 16:30 pm Articles |
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I understand that you are having problems with the article. I myself consider it one of the most difficult aspects of language learning aside from the prepositions. The latter has many rules with many exceptions. In my case, I learn some rules, read a lot and learn by experience. In the case of your sentence "My favorite animal is dog," I know it's wrong because it doesn't sound right, there must be an indefinite article "a" before the word "dog." You must know when and when not to apply a particular rule to a particular case and one way of developing it is by reading a lot. I also know that non-natives of language tend to confuse the rules.
Good luck in your English studies! |
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Guest Guest
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Thu May 26, 2005 17:49 pm Rules |
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| carbonarius wrote: | | I wonder what a forum member with a mother-tongue which has not articles would think about this subject. How lucky you are, Poles! As for me, I can speak Spanish, but I if I wanted to teach it, I would be in trouble. We say: "Mi animal favorito es el perro (IS THE DOG)" Why? I don't know, we just say it like that. Well, if someone wants the answer, I can search for it. But, as far as I know, custom is much more important than logic in languages. I didn't see any offence in your replies, Narayanan, but I think that you take logic as the judge in discussions about languages, and I don't agree with you. |
I agree with you, Carbonarius. Last year, I was a scholar in Spain and my grammar teacher emphasized: "it may be grammatically correct but are they [natives] using it?" Now, I believe that what she said not only applies to Spanish but for any language in general. Grammar rules are mere guidelines but you don't always stick to them; thereby, treating them like mathematics or logic; you must also learn the exceptions. Also, language is a different field which has its own rules. It exists because the people decided to use them and they express ideas in a particular way. You also have to consider regional variants for that matter and the frequency of use among native speakers that's why some terms which may be correct are considered rare.
Also, I used to have a Spanish penpal and she told me that my sentences are gramatically correct but they need improving as "they are foreign to her ears." Style is another difficult aspect of language learning. |
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Hello Guest
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Thu May 26, 2005 18:53 pm Dogdogs |
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| Narayanan Krishnaswamy wrote: | With due respect to the native speaker, the quotes were all taken from English grammarians. It is one thing to speak and another to write. Spoken form accepts, simple loose formations. But not the written form; particularly if it deals with language or serious writing. I have learned many things from this forum and still hope to hear a lot on usage. In India the serious teachers wish to know the maximum they can, before they enter the class rooms. So, let me take, in normal spoken form or even in written form - My favorite animal is a dog-is acceptable and can be accepted as conveying the meaning to the reader or the listener. I personally prefer- dogs are my favorite animals. |
Hi! It's good that you are learning from this forum. Speaking of principles, it seems that you have only misapplied them. The ones' that you've quoted may be right under particular circumstances, but I doubt you would ever find a native English grammar teacher who would agree that the sentence "My favorite animal is dog" is correct. It is also true that there is a difference between oral and written communication, but I don't think that it is related to the issue whether your statement is correct or not. Hope you continue learning. Cheers! |
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frank Guest
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