How to read 'the' before 'United States'?

[Sweetpumpkin]

Hi,

the U.S.
the United States

As far as I know, 'the' before diphthongs is pronounced as 'thus' in 'thus' while 'the' before single vowels as 'thi' in 'this'. So 'the' before [yu] in 'United States' should be pronunced as 'thu' in 'thus'. But I've heard numorous times that people say [thi united states or u.s.] not [thu united states or u.s.]. Why is that? Are they wrong or is there any specific reason that I don't know? Please tell me!

Thanks,
sweetpumpkin

[Mister Micawber]

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The 'thee/thuh' rule is not a rule that must be followed; it is just a physical tendency of pronunciation. Sentence stress flows, for one thing, will modify the use.
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Native English teacher at Mister Micawber's

[Sweetpumpkin]

That's interesting. I was taught for several years that you should say 'thee' before simple vowels. Then I could say "the Korean language" as "thee Korean language" depending on the sentence stress flow, couldn't I?

Thank you for your attention,
sweetpumpkin

[Sahid59]

Hi sweetpumpkin,

first of all "united states" is not the name of the country. It is United States of America. Referring to America there are south America and north America and Canada and Mexico... So it has become a customary name to point the fifty states together as "United States.." Got it..?
_________________
Sahid59

Better tomorrow with better English

[Mister Micawber]

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I'm sorry, Sahid, but 'the United States' is indeed the name of my country. just as much as 'the United States of America', 'the USA', 'the US', and even 'America' (in context) are. All are common forms of the name of my country.

[Jamie (K)]

Pumpkin, strictly speaking, "United States" should be preceded by [ðə]. This is because the word "united" starts with the consonant sound [y] (not with a diphthong). Because [i] and [y] are basically the same sound (the vowel and consonant version of the same thing), sometimes you will find people assimilating the [ə] vowel in "the" to the [y] at the beginning of "united". However, they don't know they're doing this, and if you asked them how they pronounce "the" before that word, they will almost surely tell you [ðə].

[Mister Micawber]

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Jamie, I have to differ-- there is no 'should' about it. It is not a rule at all, like a/an. It is simply an artifact of speech flow which has been documented.
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Native English teacher at Mister Micawber's

[Sweetpumpkin]

Thanks for the answers.

My grammar book, Practical English Usage by Michael Swan, says 'the' sounds thee before vowels and thuh before consonants. This 'rule' is not strict, I guess, because I've heard lots of times people speaking 'thee US'. Being an EFL learner, I think it would be nice if there is a kind of strict rule on it. We hear 'thee' sometimes while 'thuh' other times when natives speak. Surely, pronuncing 'the' cannot affect understanding the context a lot. But I have to choose, you know, when I speak English because I'm not good at speaking it so I have to choose when, where, how to say 'the'- I say it consciously. I hope someday I can say 'the' unconsciously. :D

[Mister Micawber]

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Why should there be one more 'rule', SP, when we already know that language is not rule-based and that the rules that are conceived by grammarians are (if valid) observations of usage, not prescriptions for it?

Would you have a rule such that a BrE speaker must pronounce 'tomato' or 'herb' in one way and an AmE speaker pronounce it in another way?
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_________________
Native English teacher at Mister Micawber's

[Jamie (K)]

You can't go wrong saying [ðə] before any consonant sound and [ði] before any vowel sound.

[Mister Micawber]

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And you cannot go 'wrong' if you do not.
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_________________
Native English teacher at Mister Micawber's

[Jamie (K)]

[Mister Micawber]

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Of course, Jamie, but you are switching horses on me. I have been speaking of prescriptive rules like 'you must pronounce the as ðə before consonant sounds'.
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_________________
Native English teacher at Mister Micawber's

[Sweetpumpkin]

Of course I don't have such kind of rules you mentioned.

Korean has its pronunciation rules. Of course, we don't have almost no problem understanding each other even if we violate them. I expected the English have such rules.

[Iwanna]

Very interesting. I've learnt quite a lot from your discussion. Thanks

BTW, "you are switching horses on me", what do you mean, Mr Micawber?