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 #17 (permalink) Sun Feb 08, 2009 10:01 am Is 'short-time work' a German term? |
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I agree with Torsten Jamie,
You are misunderstanding the situation here ...
25 Jan 2009 ... The Thatcher government brought in a short-time working directive in the 1980s to cover earnings lost through shorter hours. ...
or
Maybe in the US you use different terms.
or
Maybe you are just enjoying the discussion.
but
I find it a little strange that a person from the USA is being a little critical against the British and trying, in my eyes, to imply that the only correct English revolves around nouns, pronouns ...etc Especially when you come from a country that feels the sentence "did you do it yet" is correct English !!! |
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HamburgEnglish
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| #18 (permalink) Sun Feb 08, 2009 21:07 pm Is 'short-time work' a German term? |
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| Torsten wrote: |
| ... does 'short-time work' also exist in English speaking countries? |
Hello Torsten,
I agree with Jamie that short-time work is not something that would be "correctly" understood in the US. It seems to be some sort of European term. I would say Americans would quite likely interpret it as an unusual way of saying short-term or temporary work.
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 Esl_Expert
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| #19 (permalink) Sun Feb 08, 2009 21:14 pm Is 'short-time work' a German term? |
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| HamburgEnglish wrote: |
| 25 Jan 2009 ... The Thatcher government brought in a short-time working directive in the 1980s to cover earnings lost through shorter hours. |
This sounds like it's talking about a "working directive", meaning that it's a rough draft of a directive to be refined and released in its final draft later. "Short time" just sounds like an incompetent choice of words.
"Short-time working" is evidently British slang and wouldn't be understood by most of the world's native English speakers. |
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Jamie (K)
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| #20 (permalink) Sun Feb 08, 2009 23:47 pm Is 'short-time work' a German term? |
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| Esl_Expert wrote: |
| I agree with Jamie that short-time work is not something that would be "correctly" understood in the US. |
Hi Amy,
The definition of the term 'short-time work' given by the Irish and British governments are written in very clear English and I think that any American including you and Jamie would understand that definition.
For those of you who want to learn the meaning of the term 'short-time work, you might want take this test: short time vs. down time
TOEIC listening, photographs: A girl resting |
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Torsten
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| #21 (permalink) Mon Feb 09, 2009 2:40 am Is 'short-time work' a German term? |
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| Torsten wrote: |
| So, is 'short-time work' a direct translation of the German term 'Kurzarbeit' or does 'short-time work' also exist in English speaking countries? |
Hello Torsten,
Your question did not seem to be asking whether an American would understand a definition of the expression 'short-time work'. Rather, you seemed to be asking whether the term is used in English speaking countries. You received some feedback about that from the US, which is an English speaking country.
I have now managed to find a definition online for 'short-time working', from what appears to be a British source. In view of your German-British link, Hamburg's input and the link I found, I would say my previous assessment is valid: It seems to be a European term. How people might understand this expression outside North America or Europe is hard to say, however. With any luck, maybe we will get some additional information from another English speaking country -- Australia, for example.
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Esl_Expert
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| #22 (permalink) Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:07 am Is 'short-time work' a German term? |
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Hi Amy,
Initially Jamie said that 'short-time work' is 'Germlish' which it clearly isn't. I guess the concept of 'short-time work' doesn't exist in the US which explains why you don't use or know the term.
TOEIC listening, photographs: A house |
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Torsten
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| #23 (permalink) Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:32 am Is 'short-time work' a German term? |
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Please activate Javascript in your browser to listen to this audio recording | 177 Listened |
Hi,
Both Jamie and our 'English Expert' seem to suggest an expression not known in the USA (this means not known to them) has no validity. References to Germlish and Brusselese seem somewhat 'insular', dare I say with tongue in cheek! Surely the one country that has garnered expressions from all the variations offered by its huge immigrant population and given English a massive boost and enriched it beyond the dreams of my old friend, Bill Shakespeare, is the USA? And aside from that, isn't the meaning of short time work screamingly obvious even to someone whose knowledge of English is verging on the diddley squat?
Alan
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Alan
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| #24 (permalink) Mon Feb 09, 2009 13:23 pm Is 'short-time work' a German term? |
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| Torsten wrote: |
| I guess the concept of 'short-time work' doesn't exist in the US which explains why you don't use or know the term. |
The concept exists, but it's not called that, and the meaning of the term is not recoverable from its parts, which makes it a bad bet for international use. |
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Jamie (K)
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| #25 (permalink) Mon Feb 09, 2009 13:31 pm Is 'short-time work' a German term? |
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| Alan wrote: |
| And aside from that, isn't the meaning of short time work screamingly obvious even to someone whose knowledge of English is verging on the diddley squat? |
As I've been saying, it's not obvious. It sounds like it means a temporary contract, meaning that "short-time" refers to duration over weeks or months. However, it is supposed to refer to a reduced hourly schedule, which cannot be discerned from the expression itself. Since the term is opaque in that way, it should not be used if someone wants to be understood by most English speakers around the world.
Your use of the word "insular" is comical, because you seem to think that the usage known on an island containing only a minority of native English speakers should automatically be understood and accepted by the entire world. If that's not an insular mentality, nothing is. |
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Jamie (K)
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| #26 (permalink) Mon Feb 09, 2009 13:42 pm Is 'short-time work' a German term? |
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Hi Jamie,
The use of the word was meant to be comical but you seem sadly to have missed the whole point. It's you and your pal 'ESL Expert' that I'm suggesting are being insular. But then why flog a dead horse?
Alan
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| #27 (permalink) Mon Feb 09, 2009 13:56 pm Is 'short-time work' a German term? |
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| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| Your use of the word "insular" is comical, because you seem to think that the usage known on an island containing only a minority of native English speakers should automatically be understood and accepted by the entire world. If that's not an insular mentality, nothing is. |
Jamie, if the term is used by mass media such as the BBC why would it then only be understood by a 'minority of native English speakers'? As far as I know, there are quite a few people who use the BBC as one of their news resources and thanks to technology even countries which technically are islands have been able to spread their ideas around the world so your reference to the UK being an island is a moot point.
TOEIC listening, photographs: A presentation |
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Torsten
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| #28 (permalink) Mon Feb 09, 2009 14:03 pm Is 'short-time work' a German term? |
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| Quote: |
| As I've been saying, it's not obvious. It sounds like it means a temporary contract, meaning that "short-time" refers to duration over weeks or months. |
For someone to call something short time, there must be a context of what is normal time! There is no way on Earth short time could mean temporary or a short term contract.
Note the use of "short term" as opposed to "short time" which in international English are two totally different things. Even the thought of "short term" must be with reference to something and normally this resides in either the context of the supplier or the customer.
Hole dug, coffin made ready, Jamie put in, lid placed on top. (Handing Torsten and Alan the last nails) .... giggle.... smile OK just kidding! |
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HamburgEnglish
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| #29 (permalink) Mon Feb 09, 2009 14:17 pm Is 'short-time work' a German term? |
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| Torsten wrote: |
| Jamie, if the term is used by mass media such as the BBC why would it then only be understood by a 'minority of native English speakers'? As far as I know, there are quite a few people who use the BBC as one of their news resources and thanks to technology even countries which technically are islands have been able to spread their ideas around the world so your reference to the UK being an island is a moot point. |
Most native English speakers either don't receive or don't listen to the BBC, and its terminology when referring to local affairs still reflects that of a local minority of English speakers. Similarly, most native English speakers would not imitate the BBC's eccentric spelling pronunciation of foreign names.
What we were talking about here was not ALL the English spoken by the British or used by the BBC, but about one British slang expression that has not entered standard international English.
You're making that same dumb mistake of assuming that everything British is standard and international. It isn't. |
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Jamie (K)
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| #30 (permalink) Mon Feb 09, 2009 14:19 pm Is 'short-time work' a German term? |
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"dumb mistake" !!!!!!!!!
I rest my case your lord! |
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HamburgEnglish
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